Talk:Zandalari troll

Did you get rep in the test server or on the normal server? --Drag

Zandalar Tribe

(re: The Zandalar trolls have come to Yojamba Isle in the effort to recruit help against the resurrected Blood God and his Atal'ai Priests in Zul'Gurub and in the Sunken Temple. )

From reading this I wonder, can I get rep from the trolls in ST? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Godsoflust (talk · contr).

No. Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 16:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The Tribe as Faction

I'm friendly with the zandalar tribe, and i surely got 100 rep for each High Priest and 100 for gahz'ranka. Also for the "Bijou for Zanza" i have gotten 75 rep for destroying the bijou, 150 for delivering the quest, and 3xhonor token from it(1 from bijou, 1 from quest, 1 in mail)

So i'm not sure if it matters what current faction status u have, but the info in the article is either incorrect or incomplete —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JahMon27102 (talk · contr).

LowRise: At Neutral I too got 150 rep and an honor token for "A Bijou for Zanza," plus another honor token in the mail from Vinchaxa maybe a day later (in addition to the 75 rep and honor token from destroying the Bijou in the course of the quest). I've updated the page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eillesthis (talk · contr).

Lukian: How much reputation does killing Jin'do give? I'll update tomorrow if someone doesn't beat me! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lukian34957 (talk · contr).

Zandalar individuals

What are individuals from this tribe called? In the article, both Zandalari and Zandalarian are used. Rolandius (talk - contr) 14:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I would guess Zandalari. It would fit with other troll tribe names, such as Amani, Gurubashi, Drakkari, Hakkari and so on. You never see any trolls referred to as Gurubashians for example. User:Jormungand01/sig 15:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

In WotLK?

There are a few Zandalar NPCs up in Zul'Drak. Should we put down a note or something about their slight presence in Zul'Drak? Toran Wildpaw of the Frenzyheart (talk) 16:25, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking about the categorization of said trolls in Zim'Torga. They are a part of the Zandalar tribe, but not part of the in-game faction. Should a distinction be made? Especially with Zandalar possibly being in the next expansion.--SWM2448 02:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Previous Sacrifices?

"This is the third time trolls have sacrificed their gods and stolen their power, previously in Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in ZG the champions/avatars of the gods were corrupted and mind controlled, not the gods killed. And in ZA I dont recall them killing their gods either, just being avatars like in ZG. In fact, the summoning of the ZA gods in Zim'Torga indicates they are still alive doesnt it?

I mean, yes the avatars of the Drakkari gods did the sacrificing, but that doesnt mean you need to kill your god to be an avatar. The ZG avatars were sent to ZG by the Zandalar Tribe IIRC, and they were sent *because* they were avatars of their gods. Surely the Zandalar wouldn't have associated with them if they had to sacrifice their gods to become such? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ulfredin (talk · contr).

Crest

Seriously. That crest is from the Cult of the Damned, not Zandalar trolls.--Lon-ami (talk) 19:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I knew it looked familiar... if that colored version was in the proper category I would have seen it =(. But thats Bliz for ya... putting a crest on a page completely unrelated to it... Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 19:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, Sons of the Storm has it named "Cult of the Damned crest" or something like that .--Lon-ami (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean, Coobra? I don't see the Cult crest on Blizzard's Zandalar page... -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It's in Dark Factions. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 21:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Dark Factions actually uses that crest for the cover of the book and to seperate most of the sections from each other. In essence, there are multiple places in the book with that crest. This one just happened to be tricky in that it looked like it was being connected to the Zandalar tribe if you didn't take a macro perspective of the book. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Naming

Much like all the other factions specifically named in WoW, this should be capped as well... which is why it was moved to Zandalar Tribe. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 00:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure but maybe we should split the article into two: one for the faction and one for the tribe. This way the faction would be capitalized and the tribe will be lower case. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 02:58, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

That might be a good option... considering they'll most likely make an appearance in their next expansion and this article will grow too large requiring a split anyway with STV quests and such, and whatever they do in the next... thats of course if they continue to use the same reputation/faction name. They could change it like they did with CC to CE in BC, that way players can't start at exalted with them. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 03:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Split

I think we should split this article between the faction and the tribe, just because, for example, there are a lot of members that aren't from the faction.--Lon-ami (talk) 10:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Potent Potables

The reputation chart shows this as a repeatable quest that rewards 50 rep. I did this quest today and don't remember getting any rep from it. Can anyone else confirm? I don't want to edit it and be wrong. Gilmoreja (talk) 09:56, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

If the comments on WoWhead are correct, then the reputation reward was removed for this quest in patch 3.0.9. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 20:09, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Status in Cataclysm and CM's response

The plot thickens, with Zarhym putting in his 2 bronze coins. I felt it didn't fit in the main page, so I've posted it in the discussion area instead:

Re: Very disappointed that Zandalar are evil | 2011-03-25 10:14 |  Zarhym

That seems like a stretch to raise a concern. It seems like you're conceding that this type of political strife happens all the time in real life, but because we're talking about fantasy fiction, you're afforded an opportunity to suspect us of writing a convenient story advancement for trolls. Sure, you worked with the Zandalari in the past. To say that they were true allies of the Horde and Alliance though is to not understand their history very much. Couple the fact that they believe in their racial superiority with the collapsing of nearly every known troll civilization, then add an earth-shattering event driving all political forces into a panicked state, and... you have completely unpredictable outcomes. So whether or not you're happy that your leadership is now openly at odds with the Zandalari, I don't think you can adequately call "foul" on the story. Troll history runs so deep and is so complicated that you can't just say, "yea, but I don't think the Zandalari would do that."

View original post

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deepred6502 (talk · contr).

Split?

Does this page need to split to tribe and race? --Mordecay (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Late to the discussion, but something like that would be helpful, I imagine. Copperblast (talk) 22:48, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Any idea regarding the content of each page in theory? -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:21, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

That's tricky (and probably the reason why the page hasn't been split yet) but is there any info that is exclusive to the race and is not mentioned with the tribe? --Mordecay (talk) 20:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. I don't see how we'd fill the potential Zandalari (species) page. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:43, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not really for a split if nothing can be distinguished between species and tribe... Xporc (talk) 21:23, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Sand troll and Sandfury tribe are separate pages. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 01:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

And I'm not really sure they need to be. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:58, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

For human and orcs it make sense because there are several orc clans and several human nations, each with their own culture. But if there is only one tribe per race, I don't see the point. I mean, we don't have different pages for the blood elves and the Quel'Thalas government... We also don't have separate pages for the red-haired dwarves and the Wildhammer clan. Wildhammer dwarf redirects to the Wildhammer clan page. Xporc (talk) 07:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah I guess it all depends, are there any sand trolls who are not part of the sandfury tribe? Are there any independant zandalari trolls? If no major differences exist, splitting the pages risks leading to either redundancy or two lacking articles. PeterWind (talk) 07:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

There's this guy Xporc (talk) 07:39, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Just include him in the Notes section or something. I don't think we have nearly enough content to warrant separating tribe from species. This is also valid for sand trolls. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 10:54, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd have to agree, there isn't that big of a reason to split the two, at least when it comes down to the amount of information we have on the separate subjects. WarGodZajru (talk) 15:31, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

If not splitting this and presumably merging the sand troll page, which page should be main and which should be redirect? The race or the tribe? --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 15:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

For consistency, the tribe. But for more accuracy, the race, since the race includes the tribe, though the same thing would have to be done for the Zandalari and the rest. They should just be named "Zandalari", or "Zandalar trolls", not "Zandalar tribe", technically. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 19:53, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd say the page should be named after the subspecies of troll, if the tribe is large enough, then sure, it can get its own page (Amani, Gurubashi, etc). As people wish to read up on the subspecies more times than a specific tribe. And if the tribe's info is small enough, then it can easily have a small section of its own on the subspecies page. Thus the main focus remains the subspecies. WarGodZajru (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. Page at the race, tribe as a redirect. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The thing is that they're often the same thing. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 23:17, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Right, that's why the page for the tribe would just be a redirect to the page for the race. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

That's not how I understood WarGod's comment to be honest. Agreed. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 00:32, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good to me aswell. PeterWind (talk) 06:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Page name

I'd say it should just be "Zandalari", as that is the term for the species in use by Blizzard. WarGodZajru (talk) 17:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

It should be "Zandalari troll" for the same reason we don't have pages named just "Amani" or "Gurubashi". -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:59, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

That's because the Amani (forest trolls) and Gurubashi (jungle trolls) aren't the name of their respective subspecies. Zandalari however, is. That's a difference established by Blizzard themselves. Most likely due to how Zandalari are viewed as the "royal subspecies". In the way of, their naming is different from the others. The term "Zandalari" sounds a lot more imperial than "jungle troll". But sure, if it's just a wiki thing, then that's fine. Reason I brought it up was only for lore accuracy. WarGodZajru (talk) 18:03, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

There's also at least one official source that calls the "Zandalari trolls." -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, from vanilla, 12 years ago. I haven't found any other instances where it has been in use, unlike "Zandalari" which has been in use on a constant basis by Blizzard for 12 years. Clearly Blizzard favours the latter. WarGodZajru (talk) 18:16, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I think they should all just be named "Zandalari", "Gurubashi", "Amani", etc. Their first line would be something along the lines of "The Gurubashi are a tribe of troll..". Then if there's a specific organization that is part of the species then it'd have their own page, just like Zandalari (Zandalari troll) and the Empire of Zul. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 19:42, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Nah, that's not a good idea. The reason I want it changed to "Zandalari" is because it is then accurately named after the subspecies, like "jungle troll", "forest troll" and etcetera already are. "Gurubashi" refers to the tribe or empire, not the subspecies of jungle troll. Zandalari is the term for the Zandalari subspecies, not their tribe or empire. So it would be confusing if suddenly jungle trolls were called "Gurubashi" and forest trolls "Amani", because that isn't how it works. The pages should be named after the subspecies, and since "Zandalari trolls" was used 12 years ago, it isn't exactly an accurate description of the subspecies' name, as evident by how Blizzard have been referring to the Zandalari subspecies as "Zandalari". WarGodZajru (talk) 20:02, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Even if they tend to use the shorthand, Zandalari troll is still accurate. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:06, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Outdated as hell, but sure, if you'd prefer keeping it Zandalari troll then I'll be quiet about it, even though I'll continue to think it's the bad choice out of the two. WarGodZajru (talk) 21:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Even if the term might be outdated, I think it's still the best candidate, considdering consistency. Having the various trolls labeled as "jungle troll", "sand troll, "ice troll" and then just "zandalari" doesn't sit right with me at least. PeterWind (talk) 22:19, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Considering how imperial they are compared to the other subspecies and considered "royal", I'd say it fits, but I guess that's just me. I don't think it affects consistency, but then again, might just be because I'm used to labeling the subspecies that way, and have been for several years. Yeah, I'm not changing my opinion on this one. ;p WarGodZajru (talk) 22:28, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

A friend notified me that "Zandalari troll" ( [87] A Zandalari Troll?) has been used fairly recently, so I was wrong about that. And it's "Zandalar troll" that is outdated. Nonetheless, while Zandalari troll has been used once recently, I'm still sticking to Zandalari, because it fits them, sounds better, and is the term most used by Blizzard. Although for the sake of consistency for those not used to the terms, that's fair. WarGodZajru (talk) 22:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

"Zandalari troll" is fine. By the way, there are still some references to "Zandalar troll" in the Race template. Xporc (talk) 07:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I think this is an issue that spans across many troll articles. For example Dark troll and Shadowtooth clan are separate pages when they're literally the same thing, which is supported by Troll_Compendium/Other_Trolls -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

The Zandalarian Emissary calls his people the Zandalarian trolls. So yea, naming has been inconsistent for sure. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 17:31, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Split2?

Not now, but somewhere in the future. Since at least we know two main Zandalari factions: Rastakhan's and Zul's. Rasta's trolls could be the [[Zandalari Empire]] since they call themselves as an empire because... Are they are known as a tribe or that's just an speculation? (I don't have Chronicles :' to confirm it) And Zul's we'll see when they announce it. --Ryon21 (talk) 17:05, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Sure, why not. Later though :D Xporc (talk) 17:25, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, let's not split it before we know how it should be split. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:46, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Just as an fyi, in the BfA features trailer, Jaina describes the Zandalari on Zandalar as "An ancient, thriving empire." Which is why I've been going around changing labels, lol. But yeah, as said, would be best to make a separate page for it at a later date. – WarGodZajru (talk) 10:21, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Zandalari Empire as an official name confirmed. Whenever you want to split, just make the call. --Ryon21 (talk) 13:04, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I think we should still wait for more info to properly associate info into the Zandalari Empire page. --Mordecay (talk) 13:18, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Redirects

To Zandalari troll

• Zandalar troll --- xporc: OK
• Zandalari --- xporc: OK
• Zandalarian --- xporc: let's not delete this one, it's canon according to the Altar of Zanza.

To Zandalari Empire

• Zandalar tribe --- xporc: OK

Speedy delete

• Zandalar Trolls - This one speedy delete when I change all the links? --- xporc: OK
• Zandalar Troll - This one speedy delete when I change all the links? --- xporc: OK
• Zandalar Tribe - This one speedy delete when I change all the links? --- xporc: OK, but be careful when updating, some of these links may be about the old Zandalar Tribe (faction) page. Update to point to the faction or the Empire depending on context. Anything regarding the original Zul'Gurub should point to the faction, anything regarding Pandaria should point to the Empire.
• The Zandalari - Speedy delete? --- xporc: OK
• The Zandalar - Speedy delete? --- xporc: OK

This are all the links that redirect to Zandalari troll page. --Ryon21 (talk) 13:58, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Okay, added my answers. Let me reiterate that I really appreciate the work,^{[citation needed]}  but I also know it's a very long and annoying task, so please, remember that you have all the time of the world to do this, and take regular breaks okay? Xporc (talk) 14:17, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Haha thanks! No problem, health always first. Bit by bit, I'll finish this ;) --Ryon21 (talk) 14:49, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

History section

I strongly disagree with the idea of completely removing the history section from the Zandalari article to move it to the Empire article. It'd be like if the orc article had no history on it and all orc history was just on the Orgrimmar article. That's just as much the race's story as it is the empire's story. ReignTG (talk) 18:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Maybe do it vice-versa (history in the race page and the Main link in the Empire page or rewrite both histories to match the Empire info and the racial info)? --Mordecay (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

How would you guys see it? Xporc (talk) 18:23, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I did mention when it first was brought up that the Zandalari troll page could have the history regarding their first appearance in the game, so vanilla to BfA. While Zandalari Empire has that and all the way back to the start. That could be one way to do it? – WarGodZajru (talk) 18:28, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I still disagree with that because the Empire is a subgroup of the race, not the other way around, so the race should have the history section. It's also what most people are going to search for first. ReignTG (talk) 18:32, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point. And I'd have to agree. Not entirely sure how to go on about it, feels a little "bare" without the empire page (as if it isn't its own thing) but the issue is, they'd more or less be copies, as has been the argument for some time now. :p – WarGodZajru (talk) 18:35, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

"That's just as much the race's story as it is the empire's story" This is exactly the issue : the race and the empire are one and the same. The problem currently (or at least before the History section was moved to the other page) is that Zandalari troll and Zandalari Empire are essentially duplicates, in every way but the page title. We have (or had) two pages with the exact same content, infobox, etc. -- MyMindWontQuiet 18:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Oh, yea, the same was with the Zandalar tribe and Zandalari trolls, IIRC. The tribe was eventually merged into the race page. --Mordecay (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

If we take the history section from the Empire page it would have nothing in it. Also, all of its history is the empire's military campaigns against other nations. Maybe we could add a summary into the Zandalari troll page that is more specific to the race, instead of the Empire. Especially the lore of Cataclysm and Pandaria since it is more Zul's own battles than the Empire's. I agree with having the race history page but we should do it in a way to differentiate them. --Ryon21 (talk) 18:41, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Well this goes back to my question about "are we sure the Zandalari were an empire before the Empire of Zul?". They were a civilization but a civilization and empire aren't the same thing. So what I'd do to avoid the two pages being copies is have the Empire page's history section start with a brief summary of the Empire of Zul and then move forward with the events after the Sundering to modern day, with the Zandalari Empire as the Empire of Zul's successor (which is how I've understood it since the EoZ was introduced). But that's just how I'd do it. ReignTG (talk) 18:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

For me, it doesn't make sense that nations and empires last for more than 10.000 thousands of years but meh. Also, the Empire of Zul was just the union of all the Troll Empires of that age, lead by the Zandalari. If they were an Empire or not in that time I don't know. But I agree with what you said, we could have the Empire history beginning with the Sundering until now. --Ryon21 (talk) 18:57, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Shadows of the Horde

Here I leave the Zandalari part from the book:

"He faced a Zandalari even taller than most and decidedly wider. He carried a longsword — relic of some battle elsewhere. He came in quickly — a bit more than Vol'jin expected — and brought the blade around and down in an overhand cut. The shadow hunter blocked with his glaive, but the force of the blow ripped it from his hands."

"The Zandalari lunged forward, smashing his forehead into Vol'jin's face, knocking the Darkspear back a step. He tossed the longsword aside and swept in, grabbing the shadow hunter by the chest. The Zandalari lifted him high, thumbs driving in at the center of Vol'jin's chest. He squeezed, hard, then shook Vol'jin."

Iron fingers dug into ribs, reigniting aches. The troll's thumbs even punched through the breastplate and tore at the silk beneath. The Zandalari roared, defiant and angry. He shook Vol'jin even harder, teeth bared, and looked up."

--Ryon21 (talk) 23:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Now that explains Zandalari monks Xporc (talk) 08:03, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

"Long-lived"

I want to dispute this part of the article:

The Zandalari are long-lived,<ref>Vol'jin: Shadows of the Horde, pg. 257</ref> although just how long is unknown.

This seems to be taken from this paragraph of the book:

The Horde, the Shado-pan, even Tyrathan were truer to the fundamental essence of being a troll than were the Zandalari. The Zandalari and their ilk were curl-tailed curs whining to the wolf that because they had once been like the wolves, but were now different, that they were better. True, their coats might be brighter; they might perform tasks better; they might live longer; but they had forgotten that none of those things meant anything to a wolf. A wolf's purpose was to be a wolf. Once that truth was forgotten, new truths had to be forged. No matter how clever the work, however, they would be but a shadow of the one truth.

The way I read this, the dog/wolf comparison is not talking about literal Zandalari traits that are different from other trolls', but about dog traits that are different from wolves as an allegory for how the Zandalari's supposed superiority don't matter to the essence of being a "true" troll. It's not saying that those dog traits literally apply to Zandalari. The other two descriptions (brighter coats and being better at performing tasks) don't make sense in the context of comparing Zandalari to other trolls. For example, plenty of Zandalari have darker skin than, say, sand trolls or ice trolls.

In other words, I'd say remove the "long-lived" sentence from the article since the source text doesn't actually tell us anything about physical Zandalari traits and therefore isn't relevant. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 13:06, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

What about Rasthakan? Xporc (talk) 09:11, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

We know from  [10-60] In Bwonsamdi's Shadow that his lifespan is unnaturally long due to loa blessings so he's not relevant to the race as a whole, and either way has nothing to do with the bit from SotH. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 10:47, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Oki Xporc (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2019 (UTC)