Talk:Stormwind (kingdom)

Is the flag still being used?

Is Stormwind using the old flag of Azeroth? -- Theron.

Yes, and lion's head is found on shields and elsewhere. You can just make it out on the small picture showing the front gates in this article.--Aeleas 10:14, 17 August 2006 (EDT)

Viva la Azeroth!

I feel strongly that Blizzard should change "Stormwind" back to Azeroth. They only changed it because it was confusing, but if people can't figure it out then they're too young to be playing WoW! -- Mannerheim

Currency

According to Lands of Conflict, apparently some of the outlying ares like Westfall, Redridge, and Duskwood are using different currency than that used in Stormwind itself, and some of them won't accept Stormwind currency in protest because it hasn't sent them help.

It seems to strongly imply that they consider themselves sovereign independent nations that are part of Storwind's Alliance, or at least satellite nations trying to have some form of independence.Baggins 22:29, 10 December 2006 (EST)

Section not merged from Azeroth

The following section was not merged from Azeroth because the information it contains is already included in this article in greater detail. --Voidvector 06:44, 27 December 2006 (EST)

Azeroth (Kingdom)

The Kingdom of Azeroth was one of the original seven kingdoms that split from the kingdom of Arathor. The nation was destroyed during the First War, with its refugees becoming part of the Alliance of Lordaeron during the Second War, and rebuilt following the Alliance victory over the Horde in that conflict, with a new capital, "New Stormwind". The kingdom was renamed the Kingdom of Stormwind after the Third War. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Voidvector62048 (talk · contr).

And why would they change the name of their Kingdom?! Thats like renaming Great Britain to the Kingdom of London! Their not a city-state like Dalaran. -- Mannerheim

Why did you erase my signed name? As for why the kingdom's name was changed? I don't know ask Blizzard.Baggins 18:02, 5 January 2007 (EST)

They probably changed to name just to avoid confusion. If all the original names were kept, we'd have azeroth the continent, azeroth the kingdom, and azeroth the world, instead of the eastern kingdoms and stormwind we have in the game right now.Minionman 15:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Isnt the continent still called Azeroth? Blizzard is a bitch for renaming it. I MEAN THERE IS A CONTINENT CALLED AUSTRALIA, A country and a street. (yet we never renaimed that street xd) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The last Alterac (talk · contr).

Settlements in the Swamp of Sorrows

Is there any lore on the forts and settlements in the Swamp of Sorrows in the First War? They're obviously there, but did Azeroth lay claim to the vast region?--Mannerheim 00:54, 9 March 2007 (EST)

History section

Let's see what to focus on: the first part seems good to me and the rest of the history must be short as the current. It miss:

• Reconstrucion of the Capital
• Nobles debts with stonemasons
• Birth of the Defias Brotherhood
• Varian disappearence/Katrana appearence (don't take this as a chronological order)
• Nation split/region control loss
• Birth of local governments/anarchy
• Brief hint to Varian's return

Oh and about the table section I didn't understand how you require it, however I made just a stub. --N'Nanz (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

nation of Stormwind

If the word "nation" is actually lower-case then it should be removed from the page. Every single kingdom has been called "nation of" in lore. I have read the RPGs and I have seen it a dozen times. We would have to put that "nation of" on every page if this is the case. Rolandius (talk - contr) 07:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Kingdom of Stormwind and Stormwind

I don't really understand the difference between this article (Kingdom of Stormwind) and the article Stormwind. Aren't they both the same? Stormwind is labeled as the city plus the surrounding mountain region. Isn't that the current kingdom? The surrounding zones/lands were only part of the Azeroth kingdom.. Besides, anything mentioned in this article is explained in greater detail in the 'Stormwind' article. Unireal 22:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

One is about the region of stormwind according to the lore in the RPG which is the city and the mountains behind it, not including Elwyn Forest (which is considered its own region). This article is about the kingdom, its current and previous land holdings.Baggins (talk) 20:49, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I see. Though, seeing as the current kingdom itself consists of nothing more than the city + Stormwind zone, won't it be likely that anything mentioned about the kingdom will already be covered in either the 'Stormwind City' article or the Stormwind zone article? I also thought any mention of previous outposts would lead to the 'Kingdom of Azeroth' article. (I know I'm quite new here, so please be gentle with me :-). I'm just being curious)... In any case, the template (Template:Faction_links) should link to the Kingdom or city, instead of the zone. Unireal 23:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

They are not exactly the same... the Stormwind region is a self contained region that does not include Elwynn Forest, or any of the outlying regions. It is bordered by Elwynn Forest region.

The Kingdom of Stormwind is region/nation that includes several outlying regions. This article breaks down the relations between the various outlying regions. But it is in contrast to the earlier Kingdom of Azeroth which had its own set of regions.

We once had the the two pages merged before, but people were rightfully confused on differences between the self-contained region, and the kingdom itself.Baggins (talk) 05:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Faction or region

Seeing as this article is about the faction 'Kingdom of Stormwind', would it not be more logical to have a faction infobox, instead of a Infobox zone? The Infobox zone is already covered in the Stormwind region article. This actually goes for all 'kingdom' related articles. I'm not touching it myself though. Last time I changed a Infobox zone, despite my good intentions, I screwed up horribly :p. Unireal 05:02, 15 March 2009 (CET)

um, Stormwind (faction). Let me fix the links in the page.Baggins (talk) 04:05, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps one can merge this article into the Stormwind (faction) article? The ingame reputation faction is pretty much the same as the kingdom described in this article. Unireal 05:28, 15 March 2009 (CET)

Nah, new system being followed. Player race pages, and faction pages are seperate entities despite the amount of cross over might exist with other pages. Essentially its been deemed mandatory to seperate game mechanics from lore pages. Previously the game mechanics were in the general stormwind page scattered throughout the entire article, and not easy to find. The decision is now to have just the mechanic material on the page to make it easier for players to understand the reputation system.Baggins (talk) 04:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I see. That makes sense. My point about the Infobox zone in this article still stands though. It is not a zone. It is a faction. This goes for all kingdom articles actually. Unireal 23:35, 19 March 2009 (CET)

Technically more of a region than a faction. Yes, not really the same thing as an in-game zone.Baggins (talk) 11:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Regions are just like in-game zones. Rolandius (talk - contr) 05:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

They can be, but in most non-WoW media Azeroth is a lot bigger (Not represented fully in WoW).--SWM2448 19:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Well scale wise you are right. On paper though, they would be the same written or something. Rolandius (talk - contr) 01:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

This discussion seems more about distinguishing between the land and the faction controlling it, but no, they are not completely the same.--SWM2448 20:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The difference here is that in game Stormwind is not a zone but a subzone of Elwynn Forest zone. In the RPG it was a region seperate from Elwynn Forest.Baggins (talk) 07:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Population..again..

Sorry if I'm being annoying about this. I was reading the City page and saw 200,000 people living there,and then here with 200,000 people in the Kingdom? How does that work? --Senoj (talk) 00:06, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

The RPGs say that the city has 200,000 but they doesn't mention the kingdom's total population, so I think I'll remove it from this infobox. Benitoperezgaldos (talk) 02:55, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Oh right :) could it be estimated by adding up the population of the city and the other zones? I assume the populations there are all from the RPG.. --Senoj (talk) 14:02, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Very late reaction, but yes, it can be calculated. Deadwind pass has population 1000, 15% alliance races, so 150(I hope for their sake that magic can cure the bad side-effects of children through incest, since that population is too small to be viable). Duskwood has 5000 population, 75% alliance races, so 3750. Elwynn Forest has population 10000, 100% alliance races. Redridge mountains has population 2000, 90% alliance races, so 1800. Westfall has population 6000, 92% alliance races, so 5520. Then you add Nethergarde(300), coming to a grand total of 21520. Subtract the membership of the defias renegades (1600), and you get a total of 19920+200000=220000 (rounded up). While it's weird that stormwind city outnumbers the rest of the kingdom 10 to 1 (in fact, it outnumbers the rest of the eastern kingdoms if you don't count the scourge), I don't think it's a typo, since pretty much every single zone described in the book also has its population centred in only a single town, making it consistent (though still utterly silly). --Ijffdrie (talk) 15:30, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Westfall

Wait a sec. I don't get it anymore. Some parts of the article say that Westfall is also Stormwind, but some parts say that isn't the case. So... is Westfall also Stormwind, or is it still Defias or something else? (Luxor (talk) 06:47, 19 January 2011 (UTC))

Each zone is mostly autonomous, but answering to Stormwind.--SWM2448 18:44, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Are all those regions in Northrend really stormwind territory?

Now, I haven't read all the books yet, but it seems to me like the territories in Northrend are not under control of Stormwind. Most of them were established as part of a united alliance attack force or were originally colonies of Lordaeron. How does that make them stormwind territory?--Ijffdrie (talk) 17:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

They are all under the control of the Valiance Expedition, the main Alliance army which according to the description and the Cataclysm human intro cinematic, states that it was led by the "humans of Stormwind" and "King Varian". I haven't heard from any source that any of them used to be a Lordaeron colony except from the now defunct RPGs. From the lore in game, it seems that Varian started a pioneering expedition to fight the Scourge; heavily funded by his kingdom and perhaps aided by some charitable donations from the other Alliance nations in order to establish themselves in Northrend and fight the Scourge. From what I can tell, all those settlements were recently constructed, overseen, and paid by Stormwind. Even the quest dialogue seems to imply that the soldiers there answer to the human military such as the Harbinger Vurenn acknowledging Counselor Talbot's authority and King Varian telling who ever signed up to fight for the Valiance Expedition to do his will in the name of "their king".(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 08:29, 17 November 2012 (UTC))

Mega-delayed reaction. Farshire is pretty clearly a human colony that predates the alliance expedition, and it's rather unlikely that they're a colony of Stormwind (considering the distance). A lot of the bases are commanded by the 7th legion, which is pretty definitively not a Stormwind army (at least not an army of the nation of Stormwind, though they still have Wrynn as their supreme commander), as they fought during the Battle of Mount Hyjal, a battle Stormwind wasn't affiliated with, and the battle against the silithid, during which Stormwind was holding its troops to itself. The alliance has a united army under the command of Stormwind, but that doesn't automatically mean that every area that united army is active in is automatically Stormwind territory. And the alliance flag and the stormwind flag are the same, so having those present isn't exactly an indication of the monarch either.--Ijffdrie (talk) 02:27, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

"Farshire is pretty clearly a human colony that predates the alliance expedition, and it's rather unlikely that they're a colony of Stormwind (considering the distance)."

There is nothing that indicates that Farshire was constructed before the Valiance Expedition. If you are going to assert that claim then you must provide a source. Also why can't Farshire be a Stormwind colony? You think the kingdom is unable to expand beyond it's own continent? Stormwind does have a fleet and a harbor. Northrend is also an uncharted and unclaimed land not claimed by any political entity that Stormwind is allied with so it's fair game. "A lot of the bases are commanded by the 7th legion, which is pretty definitively not a Stormwind army (at least not an army of the nation of Stormwind, though they still have Wrynn as their supreme commander), as they fought during the Battle of Mount Hyjal, a battle Stormwind wasn't affiliated with, and the battle against the silithid, during which Stormwind was holding its troops to itself." Techincally, 7th Legion only predominantly operate at Wintergarde Keep which is backing the main army at Fordragon Hold under the command of Highlord Bolvar Fordragon. And just because the 7th Legion man Winterguard does not mean they own it so their racial make up or history bears no relevance. Furthermore, just because the racial makeup is diverse does not discredit Stormwind's authority over the region as Stormwind may employ a diverse number of races if it has the power to. No other leader is implied to have asserted their claim over these outposts and as Stormwind is described as the most powerful force in the Alliance, it seems that most likely they would answer to Varian who is the "leader" of the Valiance Expedition. Stormwind created the fleet that brought the Alliance over there, they created the outposts, and it is predominantly human controlled with human architecture. They are suffering an economic disaster (i.e. Westfall) because they funded this "expedition" so they most likely forked over most of the cash to fund it and most likely have most of the "corporate shares" if the Alliance claims ownership in such a fashion. All lore points to Stormwind claiming ownership of these forts. One would not say that Fizzcrank Airstrip or Stars' Rest is a shared base just because it's Alliance since it is predominantly ran by gnomes and night elves or at least make their affiliations distinct by putting up their own banners. Just as the Valiance Expedition is predominantly ran by humans it is most likely a human colonization effort, made more evident by Marrod Silvertongue and the Northrend Homesteaders. Yes the army may have different politcal affiliations but the question that bears the most relevance is who does the land belong to? IMO, all evidence points that it belongs to Stormwind.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 08:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC))

Double-checking, there is indeed nothing that explicitly says that Farshire can't be a stormwind colony, so I must have misremembered that. My apologies (as for it being a colony: there is a long line of locals signing up to join the army in valiance keep, which indicates that there are locals to begin with.). However, you're also making blind assumptions here. You're assuming that the bases were created only with Stormwind funding, rather than with a majority of Stormwind funding, that the bases automatically belong to who payed for them rather than those who payed in lives to actually hold the fort and that every single cosmopolitan outpost was built primarily by Stormwind. There is no evidence for any of these. Could Wintergarde be constructed by Stormwind money on Stormwind land and essentially loaned to the 7th legion? Sure, but I see no evidence for that. Amberpine Lodge is also an older human settlement, with no indication that it belonged to Stormwind. Going beyond Northrend for a moment, it seems we're automatically assuming that every 7th legion outpost is Stormwind Territory, which is just silly. I'm pretty sure that the Gilneans aren't going to agree with the idea that Gilneas is Stormwind territory, just because they funded the soldiers. By that same logic, Stormwind is Lordaeron territory, because they were the ones in charge and paying money during the second war. Alliances generally tend to not work that way.--Ijffdrie (talk) 13:45, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't know who put Gilneas under Stormwind territories, but you can remove it if you wish. Here I'll do it myself. But Amberpine Lodge was founded by the Westfall Brigade as evidence of  [15-30] The Hills Have Us. batallions from as far away as Westfall battle their way through the dense foliage and inhospitable denizens of Grizzly Hills. Even if we say that Stormwind didn't build the outpost, it's under the Westfall Brigade's jurisdiction which is a Stormwind organization so the outpost is a Stormwind outpost now. All the soldiers manning the forts are being payed soldier's wages so they are being compensated. Winterguard isn't solely a 7th Legion outpost. They just specialize there. It's a Valiance Expedition outpost. No other 7th Legion outpost is being claimed by Stormwind aside from that and whichever ones Varian personally leads there. Factions like the Valiance Expedition and Operation: Shieldwall that has Varian's trademark are naturally going to be associated with Stormwind. Also the fight to retake Gilneas and the conquering of Northrend are two different things. One was to fight for an ally's home, another is to claim an unclaimed land for one's "king". There's a difference. I'm not saying that every Alliance fort is Stormwind's but Valiance Expedition is Wrynn's expedition and Wrynn is Stormwind. The first thing you see in Northrend is a massive statue of him in Valiance Keep. As evidence by Star's Rest and Fizzcrank Airstrip, other nations can claim their own land and show who owns it just by putting up their own banner or being the predominant race.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 14:04, 28 February 2013 (UTC))

Except that Star's Rest and Fizzcrank Airstrip are also Valiance Expedition outposts, which clearly indicates that just because the reputation is being used, it doesn't mean that the base belongs to Stormwind. As for race being an indicator? Remember that there are five different human kingdoms in the alliance. Stromgarde, Lordaeron (at least some parts), Kul Tiras, Theramore and Stormwind. During the battle of the Wrathgate, one of the human soldiers even shouts "For Lordaeron!", so even Fordragon Hold had a human population from more than one kingdom. Valiance Keep is definitely Stormwind territory. But that doesn't mean that every holding of the Valiance Expedition is.

There is also a difference between currently being under Stormwind administration and being part of the kingdom of Stormwind. Stormwind, as the head of the alliance, controls all shared military bases. However, that doesn't make those shared military bases part of their kingdom. Same goes for Amberpine Lodge. That quest in no way indicates that the Lodge was founded by the Westfall troops, just that they're stationed there during their search for an alternate route to Icecrown.

What I'm proposing as a concrete solution is to set up a seperate list of areas that are not part of the kingdom of Stormwind, but, as alliance bases, are currently controlled by the king of Stormwind, because he is the head of the alliance military. Similar to how the Grand Admiral controls the fleets of the alliance, but that doesn't make the fleets property of Kul Tiras. Highbank, Victor's Point, Valgarde, Westguard, Wilderfal, Fordragon Hold, Amberpine Lodge and Lion's Landing would all belong in this category. Chillwind Camp is a bit iffy, but might also fit. --Ijffdrie (talk) 17:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The kingdoms of Stormguard, Lordaeron, and Kul Tiras are either crippled, dead, or bereft of leadership. Sure they can claim autonomy in their own war torn kingdom but outside their borders they fight for Stormwind who must remain strong to maintain the honor and might of humanity. All those kingdoms if they even still exist would be heavily dependent on Stormwind. Stormguard is crippled without a capital with numerous enemies and the League of Arathor is being sponsored by Stormwind. Kul'Tiras is none existent in game. Lordaeron is no more and whatever remains of it in Hillsbrad already pay taxes to Stormwind (see  [Hillsbrad Town Registry]). It's impossible for Stormwind to maintain the Alliance army if they can't tax and govern these military bases as if it were a part of their own kingdom. Like Theramore, these forts have a civilian population which is also a source of revenue which brings up another question, who governs and taxes them? If we say that Valiance Keep is clearly a Stormwind colony, how do we know Valgarde and Wilderfall aren't as well? In the  [15-30] Hollowstone Mine, the Westfall Brigade associate themselves with Farshire so is it an extention of Valiance Keep which we say is pretty much a Stormwind colony? How do you differentiate? Idk, maybe we should see what other think and put it to a vote.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 01:04, 1 March 2013 (UTC))

I notice you didn't address the kingdom of Theramore in your list, which did still exist as a functional nation at the time. And Kul Tiras definitely still exists as a faction, though to what degree is unknown. The current Grand-Admiral of the alliance is from Kul Tiras. And Hillsbrad is not the only surviving remnant of Lordaeron. There is also a large amount of Lordaeron soldiers in Honor Hold, of which the current allegiance isn't exactly clearly established. Valiance has a lot more evidence for being Stormwind territory, mostly due to the presence of Councelor Talbot, who is a civilian administrator loyal to Stormwind. Or at least, he pretends to be. The civilians attached to a military base can be from any of the nations. They probably do pay their taxes to Stormwind, but only because Stormwind is the current head of the alliance military. The metric I'm trying to use is arguing if alliance leadership goes to a different nation, the hold would still be Stormwind territory. After all, having the alliance switch leaders shouldn't directly affect the shapes of the member kingdoms, should it? Of course, for many areas there is no clear proof, or even hints, either way. As such, I think it's safer to say that they're at least administrated by Stormwind, and add a note that it's not really all that clear to what nation, if any, the individual military bases belong. Any opinions from other editors? --Ijffdrie (talk) 03:12, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

"I notice you didn't address the kingdom of Theramore in your list, which did still exist as a functional nation at the time." Theramore though better off than the other kingdoms is also reliant on Stormwind. In Cycle of Hatred, there are citizen characters who complained that they don't have quality wood for ships and as a result their civilian ships are always leaking. That tells me that they can't build a proper military fleet and they rely on Stormwind's ships for that. Meanwhile, Varian is noted for having 200 ships at his command and enough quality wood surplus that in the WoW comic, he could trade with the orcs of Durotar and still fill the demand of his regular business. "The current Grand-Admiral of the alliance is from Kul Tiras." Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth is wearing a Theramore tabard and I suspect she is only in that position at King Varian's behest not out of any naval superiority or upper hand Theramore may have. Theramore is valued as an ally because of their adequate army, their fortified position in Kalimdor, and Jaina and the survivors' military expertise but they are not Stormwind's equal in military strength and in political clout. If Varian asks them to fight to expand his kingdom they do so because they are unable to do so themselves and if Stormwind suffers, all of humanity suffers. Stormwind is self sufficient, I don't think Theramore is. The soldiers at Honor Hold are also reliant on Stormwind and Ironforge reinforcements so they rely on Stormwind as well. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/faction/honor-hold "Vestiges of the Sons of Lothar, veterans of the Alliance that first came into Draenor, have steadfastly held on to this Hellfire outpost. They are now joined by the armies from Stormwind and Ironforge.". I think these soldiers are still autonomous at the behest of Stormwind and Ironforge.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 03:47, 5 March 2013 (UTC))

Even in "Cycle of Hatred", Theramore still had a notable naval presence. And a shortage of wood doesn't say anything about their ground forces, which were most important in WotLK. We know for a fact that they have at least some troops in Northrend, because, again, the 7th legion is fighting there, and they are noted as having fought at mount hyjal. Honor Hold was reliant on reinforcements from Stormwind and Ironforge, but that was while the orcs of Hellfire Citadel were at full power and fel-enhanced, and the legion was actively invading. Both of those tend to require a lot of troops. However, they're also threats that have been beaten by the time of Wrath of the Lich King, so chances are that they are not only no longer reliant on those reinforcements, but might even have a few troops to spare. And you're right about Jes-Tereth, though I keep to my point that Kul Tiras still stands, at least at the time of WotLK (who knows what could have happened to it in cataclysm). They lost a large amount of forces off the coast of Kalimdor, yes, but I sincerely doubt that the lord-admiral took the entirety of the Kul Tiras fleet with him.

Chances are that, yes, Stormwind is fielding more soldiers than anyone else (Varian did start the invasion, after all). However, that still doesn't mean that all the holdings in Northrend are going to be Stormwind Territory. A few of them might be, but we don't really have any way to know (except for valgarde and the westfall brigade encampment). However, we do know that, as alliance military outposts, they're currently under the command of the king of Stormwind. And I think listing the thing we know is true and adding a note for the possibilities that some territories are part of the kingdom is a lot better than going with the thing that might or might not be true and we have no real way to know.--Ijffdrie (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Autonomous

Is there any source outside the RPG that indicates that the different regions within the kingdom of Stormwind are autonomous?--Ijffdrie (talk) 17:14, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

"Kingdom of Azeroth" was retconned out

I'm not quite sure what to do with this or just leave it as is. The "also called Kingdom of Azeroth" is not a valid alternate name, it was retconned. The places where it's called such are WC1-3, Day of the Dragon, and The Last Guardian (oddly enough, Of Blood and Honor is the first book published and calls it "kingdom of Stormwind"). Everything published after WC3 refers to the kingdom as Stormwind.

The clear indication of retcon is that the in-game book,  [The Seven Kingdoms], says it was founded as the "kingdom of Stormwind." The official site calls it the "nation of Stormwind" in the synopses for WC1 and WC2. Also, the WoW manual and UVG call it the "kingdom of Stormwind" for the WC1 and WC2 eras. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 09:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I say we should add a paragraph in the trivia section explaining that the name was retconned (an undeniable fact). Cemotucu (talk contribs) 12:02, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Azeroth is still used to refer to the kingdom in  [Aftermath of the Second War] and  [The Alliance of Lordaeron], so until those sources are changed or made no longer current, Azeroth remains a valid (albeit historical) name for the kingdom. Pavielpetrovich (talk) 17:38, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

The Chronicles book doesn't ever use the name "Kingdom of Azeroth" AFAIK Xporc (talk) 01:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Neither of the sources I quoted use the exact phrase "Kingdom of Azeroth," but they do use the name Azeroth in reference to the kingdom. Pavielpetrovich (talk) 14:15, 7 February 2019 (UTC)