Talk:Ruins of Gilneas

Did the kingdom of Gilneas fall? And if yes, does it belong to Lordaeron now or something? (Luxor (t•c) 18:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC))

I believe it's largely abandoned, but held primarily by the 7th Legion. Lordaeron as a kingdom is defunct; the Forsaken are a separate political entity. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Gilneas pages

Does anyone mind if I clean up the gilneas pages in general? Since BFA they've become an absolute mess and are kind of all over the place. We have 4 pages for Gilneas ontop of it with mix matched information that could probably be condensed. --Berenal (talk) 23:23, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

General cleanup is always appreciated. But maybe not touch the BfA info there as it is a hot topic here. Oh and I don't like condensing them. I kinda like the system they have. --Mordecay (talk) 13:56, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

What would be your solution? each page right now is corresponding to a different concept, and I am not sure there are many ways to properly handle them ... Xporc (talk) 13:57, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Gilneas peninsula redirects to this page - I see logic in that decision, but not as the page is organized now. Might I suggest that we treat the page as a collection of the entire history of the peninsula, including before the kingdom was formed as well as after its fall? --Amargaard (talk) 01:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

That's the idea. When I finish with the links (who knows when that will be, maybe soon) then we will be able to properly separate the starting zone and use this page for the lore. If one day Blizz decides to remake the zone into Gilneas or Gilneas Peninsula we'll only have to redirect Gilneas peninsula there. Although I'd prefer to finish changing the links before editing the pages. --Ryon21 (talk) 02:22, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

That is a big "what if". As I said on the slack chat, this makes the organization worse. You have the worgen starting zone, the Forsaken questing zone, the kingdom, the kingdom's rep faction... and now this new redirect is being created to prepare for the chance of a new Gilneas zone. If Blizzard makes a new zone (probably a warfront), then we will have the same problem, but with three zones instead of two... none of them quite being the "lore Gilneas". The starting zone Gilneas and the Forsaken Gilneas are both specific moments in time, unfit to hold an overall history. This could be solved by just treating the starting zone as the lore page, but that was already the case until the kingdom was split off... now the kingdom page is too kingdomy to be general lore. If you take away both zones and the kingdom, what if left to write about? My suggestion is to move the kingdom page to Gilneas, and the worgen zone to Gilneas (starting zone).--SWM2448 23:57, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

For now I am cleaning the links. When I finish, all links should go their specific pages and the Gilneas name should link to nowhere. I am using Gilneas peninsula as a replacement of Gilneas while moving the links. Now, the "what if". If that happens and we have a warfront, we'll have the warfront instance and an overhauled Gilneas zone that will take the Ruins of Gilneas place since that is the zone we can currently access in-game, meaning it is not locked in the past. The Forsaken quests are just a small quest-chain done in the overworld thus it is not instanced. This is the main reason why we want to use the Ruins of Gilneas as the lore page. The starting zone is instanced and locked in the past. And the kingdom page is about the kingdom. We are lacking the peninsula/zone page, that is why we will be using the Ruins since it is the overworld Gilneas zone. --Ryon21 (talk) 01:04, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

If a warfront shows up, the Ruins of Gilneas will also be locked in the past. The Forsaken quests are so phased that they might as well be instanced. No Gilneas zone will be all of Gilneas by your criteria. The "Gilneas peninsula" link is a placeholder for a page that might not come, so just use the kingdom.--SWM2448 01:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes to:

• Having a Gilneas (starting zone) page since it's locked in time.
• Having a Ruins of Gilneas page since that's the current name of the zone.
• Having a Gilneas (kingdom) page since the Gilneans keep existing and operating as a government even outside of their home peninsula.
• Having a Gilneas (faction) page since this doesn't really have to exist on the same page as "(kingdom)". There are plenty of people belonging to Gilneas as a country but not belonging to the in-game faction.

Now there is the question of the Gilneas link itself. I wouldn't mind it redirect to the kingdom, or to a new Gilneas peninsula page listing the geographical features of Gilneas and saying that the country is stuck in various locked time zones excepted in Hearthstone. We could move "Gilneas (kingdom)" to simply Gilneas but I'm not sure that's the right thing to do. I'd rather have Gilneas redirect to the kingdom, like it's done for various other human nations. Xporc (talk) 07:35, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Yea, that sounds like the best thing to do. I agree with xporc. It also leaves it open incase the whole zone gets named to "Gilneas" because it is no longer in ruined. — SurafbrovWarcraft Wiki administrator T / C 10:44, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Ya I'm in favor of moving the kingdom to [Gilneas], or maybe redirect [Gilneas] to [Gilneas (kingdom)]. -- MyMindWontQuiet 12:22, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

So [Gilneas] redirecting to the kingdom page and [Gilneas peninsula], for now, to the [Ruins]? --Ryon21 (talk) 13:50, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good to me Xporc (talk) 14:12, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Occupation

Regarding this paragraph, @Berenal could you please provide any reference that supports that is the case. Having nothing doesn't make this valid whatsoever. Right now, it is just pure speculation. — SurafbrovWarcraft Wiki administrator T / C 03:29, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, sure.

First reference is that of the Blizzcon Warfronts portion. While I'm not sure where you can find the actual warfront video now that it's been taken down in :preparation for Blizzcon 2018, it was stated "To take on the Worgen Kingdom of Gilneas". This is highlighted here:

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/673330.jpg

My first point with this is the lore it's self. The Horde needs Stromgarde in order to attack Gilneas to begin with. A launching point. That makes no sense if Gilneas is not occupied in some fashion. The previous lore ruling stated it was abandoned and ruined. A launching point would not be required, Arathi has already been confirmed to have been rebuilt prior to the Horde assault from their base in the highlands. Newstead, High Perch, Stromgarde it's self, they're all Alliance towns originally and initially; as alliance starts with Stromgarde in their control. They are laying a full siege on a rebuilt nation with the intention of attacking Gilneas. It is stated on the inverse, the Alliance needs Stromgarde to help with momentum to attack Silvermoon. The two don't equate unless there's something in Gilneas. Why would the Horde need a staging ground for an empty plot of land? It'd make more sense to use Gilneas to stage on Stromgarde.

Second are the mission table quests. There are several, which I'll list out in order of importance, starting with  Shadowfang Plague. The Alliance version requires you to stop Chief Plaguebringer Harris from "developing a new bioweapon to unleash against Gilneas". This directly infers there is stuff in Gilneas they're going to unleash it on. What else, otherwise, is it going to be unleashed on? The grass? The quest has a Horde version that also infers the 7th Legion are surrounding SFK, led by someone named Tobias Zaren. He was Pietro Zaren in the beta, and while replaced since Pietro died, Pietro was the 7th Legion liason in Gilneas City for reference. The Horde version doesn't add much beyond what we already know.

The next mission table quest is that of  Gilnean Assault. It's a Horde-only mission table quest with an Alliance equivalent named  Undead Rising. It states that Darius Crowley is marching a Gilnean army into Hillsbrad and to "set upon them" by the Sludge Fields where the Forsaken power is greatest. This infers that the army is coming from the west, otherwise there'd be no setting upon them from the Sludge Fields. There are other quests that detail armies coming from the east, so these armies are very obviously not coming from the same direction.

Gilneas is then referenced again within the  Undead Rising mission table quest, which has the following description: Untold numbers of undead are raised in The Sludge Fields and marched against Gilneas. Send an assault to crush Warden Stillwater's seat of power. This infers that undead are being marched against Gilneas, again. What are they marching against if Gilneas isn't occupied/reclaimed by the Alliance?

There's other mission table quests, such as  Lordamere Lake which shows that Ivar Bloodfang and the Bloodfang pack are active in Silverpine again as well, as well as a few others that directly infer there is assaults going on throughout the zone, though Lordamere Lake is the only other one inferring Gilneas.

Ultimately to sum up my point, you have the Stromgarde warfront, with a panel from BlizzCon stating that the point of Stromgarde for the Horde is to attack Gilneas afterwards; which makes no sense unless there's something in Gilneas to attack already given the circumstances of how huge that Warfront is and how very heavily guarded it is, the three main mission table quests, being that of the Alliance version of Shadowfang Plague, Gilnean Assault, Undead Rising and supportive evidence in the form of Lordamere Lake mission and the Horde version of the Shadowfang Plague. These are all stating that there is something in Gilneas to be attacked, be it occupation or reclamation, it is not being inferred, it is directly stated that Gilneas is a target of attack. "To unleash on Gilneas" "marching on Gilneas" "Staging point to attack Gilneas". I really don't know how much more evidence is needed to slap on the label of occupied. I had this all listed up months ago with citation but was told that it was over sourcing so it was taken off. --Berenal (talk) 03:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

But, unless we have a direct reference stating that Gilneas is being rebuild, that Genn has taken control over his region and city, we cannot say they have. Doesn't matter that the logical case would be that. No reference means nothing has happened yet. Sometimes with minor things we may take some liberties about it, but this is a major thing. And as I have said before, maybe Gilneas has build a base somewhere from where they send their forces. That'd be enough for the Horde to want to launch a new "invasion" on the peninsula. Even the region could become a warfront in the future. But right now, unless we have THE reference, we cannot state that Gilneas has been recovered by the Alliance.--Ryon21 (talk) 12:17, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Leaning towards Ryon here. My solution would be take the verbatim of the missions and the Blizzcon sentence and put it there without anything else. It would be up to readers to think anything further of it.

They are vague. With them we don't know for certain if (or to what extend) supposedly Gilneans reclaimed the land and city. The Horde attacks could also mean that they want the land and not necessarily to attack a potential army of Gilneans in Gilneas. According to the UVGs, the Bloodfang Pack was always in Gilneas and other parts of Lordaeron so that isn't something new. The Darius mission doesn't say from which direction he was coming. Speculatively, it could be Stromgarde, Silverpine, or Gilneas.

If really, necessary needed, in the bfa section or in the Speculation section add something like "based on the description above" (referring to the missions), it could be speculated that the Gilneans have reclaimed the land.

Oh, the sentence without the period in the BfA section is killing me right now :-O --Mordecay (talk) 13:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the sentence without the period, #meetoo. — SurafbrovWarcraft Wiki administrator T / C 14:16, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

#meetoo --Ryon21 (talk) 14:24, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah that period is killing me. Though, to the actual point: I think you guys are misunderstanding my intention a bit.

I'm not saying that Gilneas is reclaimed and rebuilt and all this other stuff, I'm saying it's occupied and, likely, undergoing restoration. It's not a good base if they don't at least fix something. My idea was to list it as occupied by the Alliance; we have enough to prove that. The Horde has plans to attack something of the Alliance's in Gilneas, and we have forces coming from the area. Also, @mord, we do have proof that Crowley's coming from the west, there's a mission table quest that talks about an alliance army headed from the east, and it's Hammond Clay coming from Stromgarde and that they need to be stopped before the army can come closer. There's no other location Crowley can come in from since Hammond Clay is in the east. I'm not necessarily saying that Gilneas is fully reclaimed, but it is most definitely occupied and a point of power. (Point of Power meaning that there is importance being placed upon its holding, which is true, there's four mission table quests and a warfront centered around the idea of getting into Gilneas for the horde; it is definitely a point of power/interest.)

Would this be more acceptable?:

Gilneas is a point of power in the northern Eastern Kingdoms, occupied by Alliance forces, and of keen interest to the Horde following the Battle for Lordaeron. The 7th Legion surrounds Shadowfang Keep, led by Captain Tobias Zaren, to prevent Chief Plaguebringer Harris from unleashing a new bio-weapon against Gilneas. At the same time, a Gilnean army marches east from Gilneas under Darius Crowley following this, assaulting the Horde-controlled region of the Sludge Fields, which is amassing undead to assail Gilneas.

--Berenal (talk) 17:40, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Maybe using something more like: "Because of (reference) and (reference), it seems the Alliance has some sort of presence in the peninsula, though to which extent is not known." --Ryon21 (talk) 18:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Just copy/paste the mission text and nothing else. -- MyMindWontQuiet 20:34, 30 August 2018 (UTC)