Talk:Wrathion

Speculation section

Why are the only options Sabellian and Serinar. Would not any male on the list be an option? TherasTaneel (talk) 17:56, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

While his literal father is unknown i believe he's refering to Deathwing when he says the sins of his father, As he is the "Father"/Aspect of their flight. --Whitedragon254 (talk) 18:33, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Sabellian and Serinar are the only named male dragons that are still alive for sure.. thats why I wrote: "Possible candidates could be Sabellian, Serinar, or even an unnamed black dragon." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LemonBaby (talk · contr).

However... considering the female was forced to lay eggs by the red dragonflight, perhaps the father is a red dragon. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 19:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

This is entirely possible. After all Malygos forced a red consort.  MoneygruberTheGoblinChieftain of the Gentleman Tribe(talk contribs) 20:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Deathwing is confirmed to be his father. --g0urra[T҂C] 09:04, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

The source you provide doesn't actually say anything new. Month ago his quote "But I will NOT be held accountable for the sins of my father. My destiny will be my own." pretty much said the same thing. But since Sinestra is the only consort who survived mating with Deahwing it was speculated that he may not be the literal father of Wrathion, though, he is the leader of their flight and as such is likely seen as the father of the entire flight. But since you deleted that section you already read that, haven't you?--LemonBaby (talk) 12:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Then why was Deathwing not in the relatives part of the infobox and the speculation section still there if it was so obvious? --g0urra[T҂C] 12:14, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Because Sinestra is the only female dragon who survived mating with him. And the process of mating scared her all over the body. She barly survived and with her faked death 1000 years ago the red dragons thought that Deathwing was unably to procreate. Since the only dragon strong enought to mate with him apperently died. So it was speculated that "he may not be the literal father of Wrathion, though, he is the leader of their flight and as such is likely seen as the father of the entire flight". That was the info in the speculation section. But you propably knew that. Otherwise you wouldn't just have deleted it.--LemonBaby (talk) 12:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

In the german version the set is entitled "Fänge des Urvaters". "Urvater" means somthing like ancestor, further indicating that Deathwing is not his real father.--Azuuma (talk) 22:40, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Nice find. I'll add that to the article--LemonBaby (talk) 17:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

New Aspect?

Interesting; according to the latest post on MMO-Champion Wrathion would eventually be the last black dragon:

"It is done, friend. To my knowledge, I am the only black dragon who remains."

Would this hint that he'd be the Aspect after Deathwing is killed? --g0urra[T҂C] 11:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

It can be, why not, but... Wrathion says that he is the only black dragon who remains however, he is not... what about Sabellian and Serinar?--Mordecay (talk) 11:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

He probably can't sense black dragons on the Outlands.--Ashbear160 (talk) 11:17, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

"To my knowledge", he says. The wording of Obsidia's quest was changed before launch (shifting the meaning from the last broodmother to one of the last), so there may be more.--SWM2448 17:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I think this was Blizzard's plan, ever since they started with the uncorrupted egg, so they can bring back the black dragonflight as they were intended to be so long ago, protectors and not destroyers... of course Wrathion will have his own plans. /cackle Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 17:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

If he was the last Black Dragon...what point would there be of an Aspect. MoneygruberTheGoblinChieftain of the Gentleman Tribe(talk contribs) 01:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

With the help of a female dragon from another flight, I'm sure he could repopulate his flight. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 01:44, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Sabellian still lives--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Last Black Dragon?

I have noticed that some believe that Wrathion becomes the last black dragon on Azeroth. The problem with this thinking is that other dragons may have hid better Nalice and we don't know the fates of Sabellian and Serinar. Speaking of Sabellian since he is on Outland it is possible that there are other black dragons on the shattered world. So before anyone tries to make claims on the page that Wrathion is the last of his flight, refute my claims that he is not before you edit the page. Edit wars are ugly things. --Sairez (talk) 19:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree --N'Nanz (talk) 19:57, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Wrathion is able to sense all black dragons and after the death of Fahrad he tells us that to his knowledge, he is the only black dragon who remains.--LemonBaby (talk) 20:02, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

How far does Wrathion's sense go exactly? While I can understand him sensing other Black Dragons on Azeroth there is no guarantee that he can sense any of the dragons on Outland. In fact Wrathion says "To my knowledge, I am the only black dragon who remains." To his knowledge... so Sabellian and other black dragons residing in Outland could very well be alive. --Sairez (talk) 20:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. And still I believe that there will be some black dragons in the future... So Wrathion will need female dragon to have children. Maybe from Outland. But im unaware if dragons from Outland are in corruption of Old Gods. Are they?--Mordecay (talk) 20:28, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing to suggest that the Black dragons in Outland are freed of the corruption of the Old Gods, however Sabellian does call Rexxar friend and is willing to work with the mortal races. Perhaps with enough distance a person or race can free themselves from the corruption of the old gods. Alternatively Sabellian is focusing all his destructive might on the Gronn. So its a 50/50 on them being free of Old God corruption. --Sairez (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Thats why it was stated that Wrathion is "the last black dragon on Azeroth". This information is based on in-game statements. Any other opinion is based on speculation and should be marked as such.--LemonBaby (talk) 20:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

So should we just structure the sentence during the mini-bio before the history section as "Following the death of Deathwing Wrathion is the last known black dragon alive on Azeroth" or does any one have any other ideas on to structure the sentence?--Sairez (talk) 02:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Official site character page

The official page for wrathion makes an interesting contribution on this point. It states "Wrathion is one of the few remaining black dragons on Azeroth" ... one of the few?

It also states "Wrathion is the only black dragon in Azeroth known to be free from the corruption of the Old Gods" which is again a fairly ambiguous statement regarding the possible existence of others. -- Taohinton (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Mothers and Fathers?

I was doing the quest where the egg is made and i noticed that wrathion is not exactly nyxondra child but a fusion of one of nyxondra's egg, a wild black dragon egg and a black dragon whelp corpse.

Doesn't that make Nyxondra only 1/3 wrathion's mother with the other 2/3 being unknown.

Altrough it makes sense to call Deathwing his father since, supposedly the black DF started with Deathwing and he probably shares genetics closer to him than most dragons.

What do you think?--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:18, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Nobody answered...--Ashbear160 (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should rule the possibility that Deathwing might be Wrathion's literal father via magical and / or technological means. The Black Dragonflight has a long history of artificially breeding dragons, dragon hybrids and dragonkin. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 21:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Dave Kosak was pretty explicit about it on Twitter: "You guys are right, Deathwing isn't technically Wrathion's direct biological father." -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:55, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I found the tweet. Guess he isn't Deathwing's secret science baby. I'll add that info to the article. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 02:34, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Line about Anduin and Wrathion

i’m posting this on behalf of Warsongwarlord who’s having trouble with not being able to edit. this is about either removing, or moving to Speculation, the bit in the Trivia section on both Anduin and Wrathion’s pages that (paraphrased) says fans ship them but that Christie Golden has stated it’s not canon

Basically, my reasoning is this:

1) This information is irrelevant to the characters, especially Wrathion. I don’t see why ship discussion belongs in the trivia section. I say especially Wrathion because the comments about Anduin’s sexuality don’t tell us anything about Wrathion’s feelings or character at all.

2) It’s speculation. Christie wasn’t employed by Blizzard when she made the tweets cited, and since then she has said repeatedly that she isn’t in the position to confirm or deny anyone’s headcanons. While these tweets are from 2014-15, her assertion that she cannot prove ships is as recent as last week. It seems very unfair to her, and generally disingenuous.

3) It feels vindictive, and the wiki is supposed to be impartial. Except for Thrall and Jaina, I don’t see this talk on any other pages. The first citation was added a few years ago, but the second was added recently. Why would someone feel the need to come back and add to it again, except to push a personal stance? The wiki is supposed to be impartial. (In fact, I removed irrelevant information about Garrosh and Zaela several years ago and it was immediately accepted. I was shocked when my deletion here met resistance.)

4) As speculation and given the dates on the tweets, we have no way of knowing if this info is still Blizzard’s position. Datamined text between Wrathion and Kalec in 8.3 seems to suggest otherwise. In an interview with Shani Edwards and Morgan Day on 11/8/19 they suggested that Blizz doesn’t intend to deal with Anduin’s love life for a while.

And 5) Using “Anduin likes girls” to disprove his potential attraction to men is biphobic. Sorry to go there, but it is.

—Warsongwarlord via Twitter

me personally, i’ve thought about it and i agree that player opinion isn’t really the wiki’s domain, and pointing out things players/fans think just to immediately say “but that’s wrong” is unnecessary and feels like we’re trying to tell people what to think (which is Warsongwarlord’s point 3). i’ve removed other “but that’s wrong” type statements before (specifically here and here), and this line about shipping seems fairly similar in spirit. i agree with removing it —Eithris (talk) 17:08, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I lean towards wording the note clearer, as in "In Christie Golden's opinion" considering she helped shape the character (Anduin). (maaaybe it could also mention that their relationship in the books/game has been portrayed as "friendship", but I don't think it is necessary given their story is detailed in the History sections above)

Alternatively, I can imagine removing the sentence from the pages and move it to the Christie Golden page, considering her not being a Blizzard employee, and what eithris said, is a valid point.

However, I would also look at "But it's been established Anduin likes girls" if this was "established" in the books or in a quest but, honestly, I have no recollection of such words with Anduin in any book, but I might be wrong; and word the note with that mention if it exists, and if need be. --Mordecay (talk) 17:28, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Golden doesn't say she thinks Anduin is straight. She simply says that "it's been established" as in "Blizzard has established". --Ryon21 (talk) 17:38, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

i do remember a couple different crushes anduin had on women—one was a dwarf and i think the other might have been a draenei. he also acts bashful around nova in HotS, though that’s not a canon source. but either way, him liking gals doesn’t necessarily mean he couldn’t like guys too —Eithris (talk) 17:53, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, of course, but we have sources which confirms that he is interested in girls. And if we ever get sources stating he also likes boys we will add it. But as of now that is just speculation. --Ryon21 (talk) 18:07, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

ye. we could just mention the crushes on his page and leave it at that, with no mention of shipping or sexuality. that way the page would present the facts without telling readers what conclusion they should reach —Eithris (talk) 18:52, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Just to add some more information here: Before the Storm confirms that Anduin had a crush on Aerin, and the draenei thing you mentioned is from a scene in The Shattering when he notices an attractive draenei shaman in Kharanos. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 22:52, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Hard disagree.

1) Information relating to Wrathion is not "irrelevant to Wrathion".

2) It is not speculation, it is fact. Golden not being employed is irrelevant because she was officially contracted by Blizzard. This grants her the same status, within the scope of her projects (which are officially published by Blizzard, too), just like any other writer or arist. Writers are legitimate sources, and we will not remove statements made by authors and artists.

As for Golden recently saying she is not able to confirm or deny people's personal ships, this is, once more, irrelevant. She is not going to go about every single one of our ships to confirm or deny them, but if she states that a character is gay, straight, fluent in Spanish or good at painting, then this character is so. Whether it disproves a ship or not. The two statements do not contradict each other.

3) There is nothing partial about this, since it is a fact.

4) This is not how it works. Dates are irrelevant because nothing has contradicted these sources. Just because these sources are from 6 years ago does not mean they are no longer valid. If a new source comes out and says "Wrathion and Anduin are lovers", then we will update the wiki to reflect that. For now, Blizzard's official stance is still that they are just friends, therefore this is what the wiki will reflect.

Nothing here has anything to do with bias, and the Notes & Trivia section is made specifically for, you guessed it, trivial facts. There is absolutely no valid reason to delete this trivia. It is no different than the Trivia on Mak'gora, which points out the popular player misconception about Thrall cheating.

It is neither speculative nor subjective, therefore this person has literally no reason to be bothered by Wowpedia simply linking to these sources. If someone is bothered by their ship being officially impossible (currently), that is their own personal problem.

And finally, there is nothing vindictive about this, these editors are just doing their job. This person's surprise at editors fighting their vandalizing edits rather than adding missing 8.3 information is silly, because they're the reason that these editors have to waste their time with this instead of doing meaningful work. Alternatively, this person could also spend some of their time adding the lacking 8.3 information that they're complaining about.-- — MyMindWontQuiet 22:05, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Oh boy, minefield of a discussion. I'm gonna repeat some of the things stated above but let's do this:

• For the record, Warsongwarlord's account is not banned. Only Blackflightprince's account was banned for being a sock puppet.
• I'd appreciate it if the accusations of homophobia could be cooled down. I am definitively not homophobic. I'm not gonna share my life's story on this corner of the Internet, but I resent being called one. I am merely trying to "do my job" as a Wowpedia admin here. Believe it that if there were canon information about Anduin and Wrathion being gays for each other, I'd definitively add that statement to their respective pages myself, with sources and even provided protection against eventual vandals. I am sorry if my poor joke two years ago offended people but that really wasn't my intent to create such a situation.
• Since I am accused of being disingenuous and of pushing a personal stance, I don't believe this discussion is happening in good faith either. I'd like to point out that Warsongwarlord made several shipping-related edits over time. His first one was to remove the trivia about Garrosh being shipped with Zaela, which fits with his current stance that this information is irrelevant to the characters, but he also made other edits trying to enforce the idea that Anduin and Wrathion are being shipped together, with the removal of Blizzard's answer about their situation. I don't feel like this is really about removing shipping trivia, it's about removing some shipping trivia in order to make headcanonning easier. We were also accused in several tweets of not doing our job properly and that Wrathion's page is crappy, something that is not very nice to hear considering the insane amount of hours we put into this site.
• Christie Golden being a Blizzard employee or not at the time she made her tweets is irrelevant to the current situation. She is the author of several canon books, which she wrote after receiving information and validation by Blizzard. Her words about Anduin's sexuality are definitively canon considering she wrote canon.
• Thrall and Jaina being shipped together was big enough that Blizzard acknowledged it through the  [White Punch Card], which is why it is noted on their pages.
• Just because time passed, doesn't mean that old canon information is now to be disregarded and thrown away. They are still the last official word on the subject. Unless these mentioned datamined information made it in-game, they are not canon (yet ?).
• I'd be okay with scrubbing the whole shipping thing from Wrathion's page, and do the same thing for Anduin's page, as long as we replace it with something about him having had crushes on many girls + Christie Golden's words about his situation. Christie didn't said that "Anduin likes girls and maybe boys on the side", or that he's searching himself, she plainly said "Anduin likes girls" while saying that she would love to see gay characters, implying that Anduin isn't one.

Seriously, I'm all for having more gay characters, but I don't like the way this situation is happening :/ Xporc (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem is that the first half of the sentence, "Many fans pair Anduin with Wrathion," is itself an uncited statement. Who are these fans? Are any of them notable, or have they published this view in notable ways? Just because I think the sky is green doesn't mean there should be a statement on a page when someone corrects me and its actually blue. DDC (talk) 07:06, 18 February 2020 (UTC)