Talk:Titan

First?

If the troggs were one of the two evolutions of Earthen, Dwarves being the other, then they couldn't have been one of the five original races. That should be fixed, but then I don't know where the information came from so I can't really fix it without taking out the whole bit.

The Troggs aren't an evolution of the Earthen. The Titans, in fact, created the Troggs first to be their helpers, but the Troggs came out to be vicious brutes. And so the Titans imprisoned the Troggs, and then created the Earthen. This is all told by the Discs of Norgannon in Uldaman. --Adonzo 20:14, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Actually, scratch that, I was mistaken. Yes, the Troggs were an undesirable abberation of the Earthen. Another thing I didn't notice was that while the racial statues were well designed, the Trogg statue was crudely carved out of a rock formation. In my opinion, the aberration happened early enough that the Troggs could be considered an original race of Azeroth, if not necessarily a creation of the Titans. --Adonzo 20:24, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

I agree they came early, but only as early as the Dwarves, which are not listed as one of the five 'original' races. So, in my opinion, it would make more sense to say that the Earthen were one of the originals and the troggs and dwarves equal derivations thereof. Leave it to me to be a stickler. :) Also, while I'm on the subject, where exactly does it say that the Trolls were created by the titans and evolved into NightElves? Not to say I disagree, I'm just curious where the actual info comes from. --Iavas 23:01, 11 May 2006 (EST)

• cough* Yeah, so I just noticed that this whole discussion, although fascinating, is quite pointless. The article doesn't list the Troggs or the Dwarves as one of the five originals. Unless somebody edited it, then I must admit that I was mistaken and apologize. --Iavas 23:07, 11 May 2006 (EST)

Yeah, I edited out the Troggs as an "original" race. The five races there now (Earthen, Trolls, Giants, and Tauren) are the only races native to Azeroth that do not seem to be directly descended from another race. As for Night Elves being descended from Trolls, I will point you here. --Adonzo 15:55, 12 May 2006 (EDT)

And even if they're not descended from trolls, they're descended from something non-kaldori (a nocturnal race that found the Well of Eternity). Saimdusan 22:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Azotha perhaps? :) -- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 20:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The "original race" issue is tricky at best. There is no way to "number" it ("I.E" concept of "five original races"). There is implication that furbolgs and murlocs were races that may have predated the coming of the titans as well. If so that would toss any Titan created races from being valid for the "original" race list. For the record Furbolg were living in Northrend at the time of the coming of the Titans and direct encounters were rare, if any (The furbolgs just have legends of the seeing the coming of Titans to their world, but not any references to any specific encounters). Murlocs on the other hand lived under the seas at the time, and never came to the surface to encounter the Titans as far as we know.

As for Trogg history, they were created at different times at different facilities. The same or similar accident occured at various points in history at different titan facilities and slightly different ways (for example at Uldum, and Bael Modan facilities). So its very hard to put a specific date as to when troggs appeared, or in specific way they appeared.Baggins 22:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)Baggins 22:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought before the titans came the world was primordial chaos ruled by the old gods. Must not have been pleasant for them.--SWM2448 22:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That's why the kodos of that time were so huge, also for the huge animal survivors who were labbeled as "demigods" by the lesser races. You need power and size to survive that chaos mon *roll eyes* ---- Ravenore, the Necroshadowmancer 20:09, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

'Racelink'

Ragestorm, what do you mean by 'racelink is only for playable races'? --Vorbis 17:25, 18 Dec 2006 (GMT)

The banner across the top (racelink template) is only to be used on the pages for the ten playable races (Draenei, dwarves, gnomes, kaldorei, humans, sindorei, Forsaken, Orcs, tauren, and trolls) listed in the template, and perhaps the Horde and Alliance pages. Titans are not listed and not playable.--Ragestorm 13:56, 18 December 2006 (EST)

Ah right... whoops. Think I may have just missed that. -_- --Vorbis 22:59, 18 Dec 2006 (GMT)

Playable Titans....now that would be something to experience. --Nurizeko

Other Beings

Besides Moonhounds (or w/e they're called), do we know of the Titans having any mounts, other pets, and/or just any other species of life from their homeworld, or used by them? Mr.X8 Talk Contribs

Combat styles???

Do we really care about combat styles for the individual Titans? I know WoWWiki isn't Wikipedia, but come on, they seem out of place and just plain... unencyclopedic. I can't help but think they don't belong in the article. I mean, it's all just fluff written by the RPG designers, not actual Warcraft lore. Hekirou 18:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Anything written by offical Blizzard RPG designers is official lore. If someone on WoWwiki just went and manufactured these "fighting styles" for them, then they don't belong in the article at all. ~Don't say Retnoob, say Peregrine 20:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Being official lore doesn't make it belong. He's right, whether its official lore or not, it is very messy and irrelevant to the entry.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crazyguy co (talk · contr).

Race Picture?

Could we get some verification that the picture used the represent the race is an offical blizzard representation, or at the very least recognized fan art? ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 23:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

What are the Titans?

I've made up my mind about the Titans. I looked through any information about them, including any site that is currently available on Azeroth that is somehow related to them. I get the impression that the Titans didn't actually "leave" Azeroth. It looks more as if somebody puts down anything he has in his hands and leaves the planet in a hurry.

What about the gate at Uldum for example. Clearly the gate was built to keep something "inside". I mean....the Titans had the ability to imprison the Elemental Lords to another dimension. And then they build a wooden gate in front of Uldum? All im asking is if somebody who reads this also has the impression that the Titans are not what the legends make us think about them. Metamagic 03:31, 08 February 2008 (CET)

What are you getting at here? Who said they were made to keep something inside? --SWM2448 02:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason is quite simple. There are big iron brackets on the outside of the gate. (One is actually missing) They are sufficient to hold a big log to hold the gate shut. Now the point is: With these brackets to hold a log on the outside of the gate...it is clearly made to hold something inside... Metamagic 04:09, 08 February 2008 (CET)

He's right about one thing, those gates are meant to keep something in, not out. If you look on the uldum page there's a lot of information relating to it. Now, there's no reason to think that it was the titans that put that gate up, could be the giants out side of it, or one of the ancient races of azeroth that we may or may not know about. I really don't know what this guy's getting at, he needs to stop beating around the bush and come out and say it, in my opinion.Tweak the Whacked 03:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All I'm trying to say is that some things that the legends say about the titans don't really fit to what "ancient items" can be found around Azeroth which were supposedly made by the Titans. Maybe Tweak is right....maybe there are more ancient races we have not seen anything about yet. Let me give you more examples exept the gate I mentioned. When I went to Uldaman and I opened the chamber holding the Disks for the first time....I asked myself....They keep gold here? A race of beings of unimmaginable power keep gold in their vault? A being of such power should be beyond that. Sargeras for example surely was. And what about the Troggs? In the Wowwiki article about the Titans they are described as reclusive. Watching that they don't interfere with natural evolution. Creating a race of beings and just leaving that race untended is a quite severe interference with natural evolution, isn't it. Somebody who doesn't want to interfere with the "natural way things are" shouldn't be doing things like that at all. They must have known that the Troggs (and the Dwarves for that matter) would come out of their "captivity" one day. And the Disks of Norgannon? Kept in a vault that is easier to access than Scholomance.... It almost seems that they were rather meant to be found. The architecture of Uldaman shows many things about whoever built it. Structure, symetry, order. That doesn't fit a race of powerful beings which keeps one of its failed experiments untended. And what about Un Goro Crater? Somehow the Titans managed to halt the natural way of evolution. Hence all the dinosaurs in the crater. How does that fit into that? And the elemental lords like Ragnaros? According to legend they were banished to another dimension by the Titans. Somebody who is able to achieve that shouldn't be building gates to keep something from being robbed. Imho I think there are a few ways to explain that: Either the Titans and the builders of Uldaman etc. are not the same race or the mysterious Titans were much more "down to earth beings" that the legends make us think. Secondly all these various facts show that this progenitor race may be quite intelligent, but certainly not the very wise. However there is also the simple explanation that the designers of the game just didn't think about such details. Whatever...what do you think? Metamagic 07:14, 08 February 2008 (CET)

Well I think a few things. Firstly, the the ease/difficulty of reaching the disk cannot be compared to say scholomance, as lore power and game mechanics don't always mesh well, just because they're a certain ingame level does not mean that is their actual power.

Secondly, not interfering with natural evolution could be part of the myth to explain why they left, they might just not care about us. Then again, as they are presumably the creators of most if not all intellegent life(the furbolg myth doesn't hold a lot of water as far as i'm concerned), natural evolution could simply refer to how the races they create develop. As far as they're concerned, the troggs, dwarves, and earthen are natural creatures of the world, and since they were formed from the very stone of azeroth itself, they are in a way. Its possible that the other creatures are also creations, or the decendants of titan creations.

Its also worth noting that the dwarves and troggs weren't imprisioned in Ulda by the titans, the original troggs were destroyed for their savage nature, and the earthen who chose to seal themselves away beneath the earth destabalized, some into troggs and some into dwarves.

Its also possible that the titans did want those disc found, as if they didn't, they wouldn't have left a construct there to translate for those who found them. Still, its a vault, and you take security measures in a vault. The presence of coins could have been a design oversight by the devs, or it could mean that dwarves, who value things made from the ore of the earth, inherited this trait from the earthen.

Un'goro could simply be an annomally caused by the unique geography of the region. As there is a near identical crater in northrend who's name escapes me right now, it could be as simple as the act of "landing" on azeroth by the titans had an unforseeable side effect that resulted in these crators. The dinosaurs remaining their might not be because of halted evolution, they may simply have been unsuited to survive in other enviroments. In places like Un'goro, they could thrive without predators such as humans and trolls hunting them.

Binding the elemental lords and old gods wasn't done with the wave of a hand that most people think it was, it was a war that waged on for thousands of years. And since their prime enemies had been banished, it stands to reason that they didn't see the need to expend the energy to bind their structures to another realm, especially since they may have wanted their creations to one day gain entry. Earthen were definately able to open and close the gates of titan structures when they chose, as they sealed them selves in to escape the legion.

And I maintain that the gates on Uldum are not of titan construct, and are in all likely hood only a few hundred years old, as even wood that thick would rot away after much longer. The War of the Ancients trilogy confirms that there are many unknown races that have gone extinct in ages past, predating even the trolls and elves, as a dragon mentions that the night elves wouldn't be the first race to destroy themselves with the power of the well of eternity. The rpg also list several races not shown in other sources of lore.

The titans may not be all knowing and all powerful, but several things are unforseeable, and or have other explainations. The titans being a major creator race isn't legend, infact most people on azeroth have never heard of them, its what actually happened according to blizzard. So there are a few inconsistancies, doesn't mean the whole myth is a lie.Tweak the Whacked 22:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm....interesting. Maybe you're right. However your argumentation holds some inconsistencies.

Iwasn't actually refering to game mechanics when I said that Scholo is harder to access. In other words I don't think about the levels of beings inside, because I understand that lore power and game mechanics don't mesh well. What I mean is that you have to forge a key to get to Scholo. In Ulda basically every group of three people is able to open that vault. Theres no key at all! Shouldn't somebody who is able to put others away to other dimensions have better ways to achieve that? I mean ok there are a lot of guardians in there thats for sure....however that doesn't fit to a vault door that doesn't really have a secure lock. I don't know how to say it...it just doesn't ... feel right...it feels more...so...set up.

And about the Non-Interference? What you say means basically that it is ok to meddle in affairs of the "natural way" as long as you don't use means to achieve that which are "not of this world". This also feels...not logically....it feels more like a bad ecuse for what you do. I mean a geneticist wouldn't argue like that. That he justifies what he does beacause he is able to do it.

About the discs...I still claim that they were rather meant to be found. Much the same way as the dwarves found that Great Anvil they have in Ironforge.

And Un Goro? If a race of beings manages to survive by whatever means ( benevolent environment, lack of predators etc.) that doesn't mean they don't evolve. I mean look outside....you see birds, lizards, snakes, frogs. They are basically the "dinosaurs" of our time. These are the animals the remaining dinosaurs evolved into. Just managing to survive doesn't halt evolution. Now the question remains if this was done on purpose or not. Well...at least the obelisks around the perimeter of the crater were clearly put there on purpose not coincidentially. And they still work. The space between them has remained a lush forrest while the area around them is dry, desert, a barren waste. Coincidence? I don't think so...

About the gold in Ulda. Well the easiest explanation is that the devs simply oversaw that detail. Ok the Earthen locked themselves in there. However...if you put yourself away in a vault to endure some kind of cataclysm outside. Would you take money with you inside that bunker? Surely not...

And about mythology and truth? That is always a tricky thing. Because I think mythology and truth dont mesh that well. The truth in a myth lies hidden and is not that easy to see.

Whatever....here is my version of what happened. The Titans were in fact quite "normal" people. Like humans....but very advanced in things like technology, magic or science. It is also possible that they evolved to such a state and that they were like todays humans when they arived on Azeroth. At some point something they did went incredibly bad. Some kind of "cataclysm" which they were not entirely inocent about. At that point they decided to leave the planet. However they left something here. Once these things are found the Titans would know this world is hospitable again. Populated by thinking beings. Now once they know that...they will return here for good or bad...that remains to be seen. Metamagic 22:52, 10 February 2008 (CET)

Problem is evolution doesn't apply within this game. Lore has established that, for the most part, the races of this game are the result of intelegent design. Wether from the old gods, titans, elune, or demons, every creature is the direct result of one of these beings, or mutation from another source. Considering that life on azeroth started 140 some odd thousand years before the game started, it would be impossibe for the kind of evolution we see to happen naturally. Thats the kind of stuff that happens over millions of years. Lore has offically established that elementals ruled azeroth under the old gods before the titans came, and then the titans shaped life as we know it.

And as a matter of point, evolution will stop if a creature is perfectly addapted to its enviroment. Sharks and crocodilians have barely changed over hundreds of millions of years because they are so well adapted. The dinosaurs of un'goro are the same, so long as the enviroment doesn't change theres no reason for them to change either.Tweak the Whacked 22:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hm...hm...hm....well...I'd rather say evolution does apply here. I mean the night elves evolved into Naga. The Earthen evolved into Dwarves. The "fantasy" element means this happens very rappidly. I don't claim that evolution started millions of years ago as far as Azeroth is considered. It happens more like mutation. However what is mutation? Nothing more than a sudden rapid step in evolution. Brought about by magic in this case.

In the end...lets just say that you have your opinion and I have mine. Both correct in its own way. Cause nobody knows what really happened. Metamagic 23:55, 10 February 2008 (CET)

Children of Old Gods?

Anyone believe that the Titans were children of the Old Gods, but Titans decided they should have been killed. Similar to Greek Mythology were Olympians over through Cronus and the other Titans. Also connects to Twilight hammer belief

The Titans "discovered" Azeroth after many years of creating the universe. So... no, not really. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 18:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well they had to have had parents, considering Sargeras, and Aman'thul are brothers, and what other known beings are powerful enough to have titan children.Geeko 19:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

A previous generation of Titans? A race we haven't yet seen? Or, they simply could have popped out of the ether at the same place. Note that this discussion is non-editorial and should be concluded or moved. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Can't have been a previous generation Aman'thul is oldest and wisest of his race. Geeko 23:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Heed the Ragestorm!--SWM2448 23:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Dark titan icon?

As eredar have different race icons to draenei - including female eredar, of which only three are known - I move that we therefore also have a suitable dark titan race icon; for example:

File:IconSmall Dark Titan Male.jpg

Even though there is only one dark titan known so far (though others apparently exist); as he is the prime antagonist of the Warcraft series I do not believe it superfluous to allow him an icon. --User:Vorbis/Sig 11:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Other Dark Titans exist??

Link, please. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 01:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

dark titans was used as a plural term in Magic & Mystery.Baggins (talk) 02:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

If there are other dark titans, maybe one of them could be behind one of the many plotlines in WoW. Although if any of these dark titans have the strength of Sargeras, Azeroth is going to have a big fight on thier hands.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 02:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I keep picturing an expansion to WoW, "World of WarCraft: The Travellers" or some such name, featuring the return of the Titans... and, the return of Sargeras. ~My rage bar is blue and I start the fight pissed - Peregrine 17:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The image of Titans

Okay what are Titans supposed to look like? There a lot of pictures on here of them looking like humans or superhumans. Then there are the pictures of them looking like Stone giants or Stone guardians.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 06:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

There are pictures in both the main Titan article and those of the individual Pantheon members. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 11:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I know that. That is why I am asking, what do they really look like? Thier individual pictures or the pictures of them looking like stone giants? Both type of pictures are different in depicting a Titan.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 12:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. By definition, the titans are gigantic humanoids made of metal. I think every image we have tries to convey this.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

He means this looks more like this than this.--SWM2448 23:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh. Well, I'd say that this is the in-game rendition of this. You can see light reflecting off his skin in the latter. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 01:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The main titans look like their artwork. If they appear in-game they will be forced to use a stone giant model, as a short cut. Also there are other pictures of titans ingame presented in bas relief on the walls of Uldaman. Not sure if anyone has bottered to upload the textures though. It would be nice. It makes them look like greek dieties.Baggins (talk) 01:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes what SWM said was what I was trying to say. If they look like the greek dieties, then they look human — just more grand and strong. If they look like metal humanoids or guardians, then that is more like the in-game model. I was just wondering, are they metal-skinned gigantic statue sized guardians or are they huge greek type idealic looking humanoids who might even be related to humans. Like the saying goes:

if a lower technological society ever met a higher technologic society, they would think the advanced society are magical and gods, when in reality they are just more ahead in thier civilization technology.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 04:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

They look like metal-skinned greek dieties, and the named ones look like they do in their artwork... Its not that difficult.Baggins (talk) 04:37, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok well to me the named ones in the artwork don't all look like metal-skinned giants. Just look at Khaz'goroth and Aman'Thul.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:15, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Its easy to tell which skin color they'd have based on their subrace vanir, and aesir. However, how do expect to tell base on just a black and white picture? Put two and two together. Certainly a black and white picture isn't going allow you to see "metalic" colors.Baggins (talk) 05:26, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

That is true. Although I do think that the Titans are probably more similiar in looks to humans then we think.LOL I don't know if it was them or the people who first met them. Someone just made them look a little better, like we use airbrushing nowadays.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Its offical lore that they have metallic skin, platnium(sp?) and bronze, respectively, except for Sargeras, whos skin is of molten metal.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 05:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

What was Sargeras before? A vanir or aesir?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Point of note the majority of information we know about titans and the artwork for them comes from the same book, Shadows & Light. Additional information is in the warcraft III manuals, and Warcraft encyclopedia. Most of that information is in the various articles. If you want to learn about the individuals look at those. Also look at the pictures of Sargeras (point of note one more still needs to be added). Also I believe its said sargeras skin is like molten bronze, its mostly solid but apparently has cracks of molten liquid leaking out.Baggins (talk) 05:44, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I know Sargeras looks way different after he turned evil. He looks like Deathwing did when he turned evil, like you said cracks in his skin with molten liquid leaking out. Also he has a tail, is very tall, and just looks plain evil.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Where is it said he has a tail? Haven't seen a picture or read a discription of him to suggest he has a tail, though one picture does show him with goat like legs, which seems to be the biggest difference between him and the other titans, besides the flaming skin and molten flesh.(And its largely believed that was simply an avatar of Sargeras, anyway. Note it uses a spear, not his shattered sword)Tweak the Whacked (talk) 11:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh in the novel, The War of the Ancients. They described the real Sargeras when he was on the other side of the portal getting ready to come into Azeroth, and it seems like a lot of the demons have tails. He changed a lot from the former Titan he was. The novel says he makes Archimonde and Mannoroth look like fleas. The power of 100 dragons was nothing to him. He has molten armor that actually makes your eyes seem to burn, a very loud voice, his eyes look like the abyss, he has fangs now, a long tail, and his hands end in wicked talons. It would make a great drawing I think.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 11:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Roland, I don't think we've been specifically told, but we can extrapolate that Sargeras was a Vanir. The "molten bronze" description would hold true for other Vanir, the molten thing being the what metal skin would give the appearance of.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh ya, I was just telling Tweak the Whacked about where I found the inormation about Sargeras' tail, and added some extra stuff I found on that page.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 12:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Point of note, Sargeras is specifically confirmed to be vanir in Shadows & Light. Also I think its implied that Sargeras has shape-shifting abilities so he could appear any way he wants too, and his appearance seems to vary between sources. Here is his Shadows & Light descripton which also confirms his tail;

The being is huge almost beyond comprehension, and is fully clad in a burning suit of molten, black armor. Wildly dancing flames surround its head and form a thick mass of hair and a sweeping beard. A pair of horns extends from the being’s forehead and a burning tail sweeps behind, leaving a trail of glowing embers in its wake. One of its arms hefts a massive, etched lance that is lined with a series of viciously hooked barbs.

--Baggins (talk) 17:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

References

strength of titans

Why is it that in many ways the Titans seem very superior and strong, and in other ways just an average race? On one hand, they created the Azeroth we know now. On the other hand, they had to create giants and earthen to fight just the soldiers of the Old Gods.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 01:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Earthen and giants were made after the old gods were defeated. Not a discussion for a talk page, regardless.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 10:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Quotes?

If it is a quote from a source, shouldn't there be quote marks around the sentences? This way I don't grammar check it, then get blamed for touching a quote.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 09:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Greatfather Winter

Greatfather Winter is thought to be a titan. "They consider him to be the personification of one of the ancients of Azeroth - the Titans." Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone ever thought that Hodir might be Greatfather Winter? He is the guardian of the Temple of Winter. User:Thio

Being considered to be something doesn't make you one. Cenarius is considered the son of Ysera, but that isn't the case. Deathwing considers himself a god, but he certainly isn't. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

We could say that about a lot of characters. On WoWWiki, we consider the watchers of the temples, like Hodir, and statues, like Maiden of Virtue, as all being Titans. Rolandius (talk - contr) 02:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

There is significantly more evidence for Hodir being a titan than Greatfather Winter. It is more than possible that Freya, Hodir, Loken, and the Maiden aren't actually titans at all (particularly in the case of the latter individual), but is is clear, though visual appearances, location, and text, that they are titan-connected or created (again, except for the Maiden). Aside from that one line of text, however, there isn't anything connecting Greatfather Winter to the titans. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it fits because the whole category is called "Others" and is speculation. All the entries have "presumed" after the characters. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The so called statues like maiden of virtue, etc, are actually unclassified or classified as unknown-type of giants. They are "titans" in as much that that they use the model named titan. Not sure what Freya's model name is however, but she is apparently an aspect/avatar of freya (something akin to Sargeras avatars, which have been referred to as titans as well). Assuming they are "statues" is probably higher leap of speculation than just classifying them by their model names.Baggins (talk) 04:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Return of the Titans?

I read a long time ago on the WoW forums that the Titans would return to Azeroth, and sort of "remake" the world the way they originally created it. I was wondering if this is real lore, or if it's just fanfiction? Any sort of input would be gerat. --Zentyr (talk) 21:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That the Titans will one day return is a certainty. That they will "remake" the world or anything to that effect is a rumor. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The Stone Watcher of Norgannon hints at it in  [50] The Stone Watcher, but he is vague.--SWM2448 21:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes. I totally missed that the first time. It is really vague, though. It's tough to get their meaning by "forces both internal and external." External certainly implies the Legion, but internal is a tough one. The Elves and the Sundering? The Old Gods? Who knows, but I'm guessing the Old Gods. The Titans will want to crush them once and for all. Then, I'm guessing, the Mortal races will help them and the Titans will probably be on their way (or just remain on Azeroth to keep the peace).

--Zentyr (talk) 00:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I read on WoWWiki that it seems the titans already came to Azeroth twice. So wouldn't that be more of a second "return". It is not like they left and never came back yet. Rolandius (talk - contr) 06:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Where did you read that? And when in the Warcraft timeline did this take place?

--Zentyr (talk) 20:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the Tribunal of Ages. The titans came and shaped Azeroth. Then the Old Gods put the Curse of Flesh on all the titanic creations, so they came back, imprisoned the Old Gods and redesigned the earthen. User:Jormungand01/sig 21:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Come to think of it, it really depends on when Uldum was made. The Stone Watcher of Norgannon specifically mentions Azeroth being "rescheduled for visitation". If Uldum was made at their first coming the forces mentioned might have been the Old Gods and the visitation would have been their second coming. If however it was made at the second coming the revisitation might not have happened yet. User:Jormungand01/sig 21:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, "Scheduled for visitation" just means they might return to check up on things then leave. If they planned to remake Azeroth, I'd think that it would be scheduled for "reordering" or something of the like. Besides, it's not like we know when Ulduman and Uldum were built. If they were built before the Titan's return, then, perhaps, the Stone Watcher is speaking about a visit that already took place. It's hard to make sense of this stuff.

--Zentyr (talk) 23:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Booyah! Jackpot! "Uldaman is an ancient Titan vault that has laid buried deep within the earth since the world's creation." I found this quote on the page on Uldaman. The quote itself was originally from Blizzard. It seems our friend the Stone Watcher is behind on the times.--Zentyr (talk) 07:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It would have been nice if the titans had just visited the one time and not done all of this Tribunal of Ages redesigning. Although Stone Watcher could be behind the times, it confuses some people too. Reading the lore and books before the expansion, it seemed like there was a war between the titans and their creations versus the Elementals and the Old Gods. The titans then left Azeroth with their creations to watch over everything. Now it looks by the Tribunal of Ages info that they only fought the Elementals, so why even create those races since the titans are strong enough to fight just Elementals, and then left Azeroth with their creations only to come back and have to fight the Old Gods. So if that is true, then creating those early races, making the different Giants as guardians, giving the Dragon Aspects power, etc. was for nothing. When they did return, they didn't seem to mention to some people like the Stone Watcher anything and also didn't wonder if the different Giants and Dragon Aspects didn't do their job. I like the previous lore where it slowly got bad for Azeroth. That way it looks like the different Giants and the Dragon Aspects did something for Azeroth at least for awhile before the Old Gods slowly turned things bad for Azeroth. Also, is there enough room in the timeline of Azeroth for the titans to have created the lands and left Azeroth, then return and fight the Old Gods, and then for the Olds Gods to already start covertly influencing Azeroth for a second time in events like the Troll Empires versus the Azj'Aqir Empire, the War of the Ancients, and the War of the Shifting Sands? Rolandius (talk - contr) 08:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The titans might have been able to deal with the elementals themselves, but when they were gone there was nothing to stop the elementals from coming back again, as indeed happened. So they would have had to leave some sort of guardians behind to stop them in future. However they didn't expect the Old Gods, and did not make their creations powerful enough to deal with such a threat. So they had to come back and do it themselves. Once the Old Gods were locked away they left Loken, who might have been one of their own, to oversee the defense of Azeroth against any such future threat.

And yes, there is room in the timeline. The titans came to Azeroth for the first time about 150,000 years ago. In the 140,000 years between then and the War of the Ancients, which is the first detailed recorded event in history which is known to be based exclusively on truth, there is time for anything to have happened. User:Jormungand01/sig 09:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought they sent the "major" elementals to the Elemental Plane? I guess they might have thought they could escape one day and left the guardians. I am wondering though, unless it is answered in a quest, how did the Titans even know that something was wrong on Azeroth and that they had to come back to deal with the new problem of the Old Gods? Especially since the second visit was an "unscheduled" return. Rolandius (talk - contr) 11:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

That's what I meant. The titans locked away most of the elementals in the Elemental Plane, but later on they escaped again. As for how the titans knew there was a problem, perhaps one of the dragon aspects could communicate with them telepathically? Or maybe they left behind little cameras or something so that they could monitor Azeroth's progress while working on the next world. Who knows. User:Jormungand01/sig 12:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Or some of the "titan watchers" sent an SOS. Rolandius (talk - contr)

To interject, Rolandius, you read speculation on the non-primary source WoWWiki (Talk:Ulduar earthen) that it seems the titans already came to Azeroth twice.--SWM2448 00:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah I see. I thought they said Tribunal of Ages was their source or something. Rolandius (talk - contr) 03:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It is, but it seems to be a bit unclear. I just wanted to point out that the info is not for sure.--SWM2448 04:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully we will see a Tribunal of Ages 2. LOL Rolandius (talk - contr) 04:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, so does this mean that we've got a new, preferably short speculation section here? --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 19:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, just to clarify, the Titans probably won't come back, right? Or is it not as clear as that? --Zentyr (talk) 01:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The Titans are definitely returning, it's just a matter of when. And there aren't any indicators of that. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 02:16, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

 [50] The Stone Watcher vaguely says yes. The Tribunal of Agess too bombarded with fan speculation to conclude much from.--SWM2448 02:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

And the stuff about them reshaping Azeroth is just a rumor? (It would screw up the gameplay, after all) --Zentyr (talk) 03:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

More or less just a rumor, yeah... Though the concern about gameplay being screwed up is moot if they were to do it in another game. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 10:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Algalon

Well, listening through Algalon the Observer's sound files (which are INCREDIBLE by the way, I truly love his voice acting) them "reshaping" Azeroth doesn't mean reshaping. It means the complete obliteration of all life on the planet in an effort to purge a perceived "taint". Apparently they have even done this multiple times on countless worlds, and even entire solar systems, killing millions in the blink of an eye. Basically, what they've done right now is to actually send Algalon to check up on Azeroth's condition, due to the death of Prime Designate Loken (from what I've gathered). His mission is to see if Azeroth is "tainted" or not, and if it is, he is going to send the "Reply Signal Omega", which is basically a call to the titans for a complete planetary purge. If all is well, he'll send reply signal Alpha, which is basically All is well.

I'm going to directly quote first the Archivum, and then Algalon himself here.

Archivum: Initiating query. The Algalon failsafe is an automatic emergency signal, following a prime designates demise. Affirmative, time stamp of Prime Designate Loken's destruction coincides with signal activation. Destruction of prime designate is considered the first warning sign of systemic planetary failure. Algalon Observer entities arrival is followed by planetary diagnostics, resulting in one of two possible reply signals. Reply code Alpha, signaling all is well, and Reply code Omega, signaling planetal reorigination, the decomposition of the planet and it's living organisms into base elements. Metals, rocks, gases. This is followed by a period of reconstitution of each element into the original planetary blueprint. Algalon diagnostics assess danger of systemic Old God corruption in planetary vital functions. Calculating chance of Omega reply code... 99.99%. Repeating, of course. (Leeroyyyy Jeeeenkiins!)

Algalon: Translocation, complete. Commencing planetary analysis of Azeroth. Stand back mortals, I am not here to fight you. It is in the universe's best interest to reoriginate this planet should my analysis find systemic corruption. Do not interfere.

Presumably, this part is what he says if you fail to stop him in time: Analysis complete. There is partial corruption in the planets life support systems, as well as complete corruption of most of the planet's defense mechanisms. Begin uplink. Reply code: Omega. Planetary reorigination requested. Farewell, mortals. Your bravery is admirable.. for such flawed creatures. You are..... out of time.

If you defeat him, now: I have seen worlds bathed in the makers flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion, of empathy. I. Have. Felt. NOTHING. A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity, had they all loved life as you do? Perhaps it is your imperfection, that which grants you free will, that allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds. You prevail where the titan's own perfect creations have failed. I have rearranged the reply code. Your planet will be spared. I cannot be certain of my own calculations anymore.

Do not worry about my fate, Bronzan. If the signal is not transmitted in time, reorigination will proceed regardless.. SAVE YOUR WORLD!

Anyway. Whoo. That took some time, and I hope you'll excuse me for posting this here, I'm certain it's already common knowledge. Anyway, the reason I posted it in the titan article rather than in the Algalon one is that this shows us just how Neutral the titans really are. I believe Algalon, like the titans, have been unable to see the people. You can't see individual beings on a map, and I suspect that's what this "reorigination" is. A planetary purge from above, or possibly from within (dun dun dun). He only realises this as the end approaches, though, and redeems himself at least partially of the millions of death's he's caused.

Anyway, sounds like a bad drama now. What I wanted to say was: The titans aren't the all good creators of the world. They are blind in their search for perfection. This doesn't suit very well with them considering Dwarves a valid mutation of Earthen, however, as Dwarves are a deviation and thus would have been destroyed. If ever, I'm more confused!

Anyway, I'm very much new to this, so if this is the wrong place to post in feel free to scold me :D Crawl Through Knives (talk) 21:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Uldaman reliefs

Could someone get a good picture of the titan reliefs in Uldaman? They would good for the article.Baggins (talk) 03:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Fate of the Titans

Why are we still doubting  [25-30] Fate of the Titans as proof of Thorim, Mimir, Freya, Hodir, and Tyr are titans and not titanic constructs? Loken is likely one, as he is their superior officer. As it is now, the non-pantheon list is entirely based on model.--SWM2448 22:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The only reference in the quest itself is the name of the quest; aside from that, all other references calls them Watchers, and Loken is called a Sentinel. However, if Thorim is a titan, then Loken must be, as they're called brothers and act like they're biological/blood brothers. Aside, they may indeed be Titans, and simply be one of the "lesser" branches of these demigods. --Scieran (talk) 19:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The titans are explicitly NOT gods or demigods. One other thing to note is that the "incredibly power" thing everyone thinks of when they think of the titans really only refers to the Pantheon, who are the most powerful of the titans. Your average titan would be considerably less powerful. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The quest dialogue for Freya's Pact refers to Freya as a "daughter of the titans", and Algalon has a line about the failure of "the titans' own perfect creations". Furthermore, the boss bestiary preview refers to Ignis the Furnace Master as one of several titan creations in Ulduar who now serve Yogg-Saron and refers to Hodir as a giant. I don't think we have enough evidence to conclusively prove or disprove the theory that the watchers are titans, and I don't think the article should be written with the assumption that the theory is correct or incorrect. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:26, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

I've split up the known titans section into a known titans section (which currently only includes the Pantheon) and a suspected titans section. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 08:32, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Tribunal of Ages / Shadows & Light

I think we have enough evidence to conclude that the Keepers of Ulduar are titans, based on these two sources.

Relevant quotes from the Tribunal of Ages encounter:

• Brann: If they killed the Old Gods, Azeroth would have been destroyed.
• Kaddrak: Correct. Creators neutralized parasitic threat and contained it within the host. Forge of Wills and other systems were instituted to create new Earthen. Safeguards were implemented and protectors were appointed.
• Brann: What protectors?
• Kaddrak: Designations: Aesir and Vanir, or in common nomenclature, Storm and Earth Giants. Sentinel Loken designated supreme. Dragon Aspects appointed to monitor evolution of Azeroth.

Relevant quotes from Shadows & Light:

• "There are two presumed types of titan, the stronger, smarter, more agile Aesir, and the tougher but less powerful Vanir."
• "The Aesir are platinum-skinned giants that once crafted the oceans and skies. Their sphere of power is storm, frost and water."
• "The Vanir are bronze-skinned giants who crafted the mountains and deep places of the world."
• "Titan flesh is metallic, and their veins pump molten iron and precious metals for blood."

Comparing the two:

• Kaddrak says Aesir and Vanir were appointed to watch over the imprisoned Old Gods. S&L says Aesir and Vanir are types of titans.
  • Loken is named as the leader of these, suggesting he's either Aesir or Vanir himself. The other Keepers (save Mimiron) look to be of the same race, and Thorim is even said to be Loken's brother.
• Kaddrak says Aesir and Vanir are also known as Storm Giants and Earth Giants. S&L says Aesir titans are giants with storm powers, while Vanir titans are giants with earth powers.
  • Each of the Keepers is a metal giant with powers that relate to storms (lightning for Thorim and Loken, frost for Hodir) or earth (plants for Freya).

Egrem (talk) 07:39, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

There are other possibilities, such as Aesir and Vanir referring to both titans and the giants under them that share a sphere of influence. Also, this info may mean that the information from S&L has been retconned (keeping the nature of titans mysterious), even though I would like to avoid that assumption.--SWM2448 21:20, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see evidence of a retcon here. Kaddrak said the Keepers were Aesir and Vanir, and their depictions are consistent with the Aesir and Vanir from S&L. It said Aesir were commonly known as "storm giants", but what else would a commoner call a 30-foot man who shoots lightning from his hands? Loken or Thorim clearly aren't mortal storm giants (like Gymer), given their distinct appearances and greater power. Egrem (talk) 22:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Kaddrak did not say that the Keepers were Aesir and Vanir. It said that Aesir and Vanir were appointed as protectors, and placed under the command of Sentinel Loken. The Keepers are protectors, and were under Loken's command, but it is also said that the Aesir and Vanir went to war with each other. Nothing has ever said that the Keepers went to war with each other. Loken and Thorim were sort of in a war, but Loken is platinum-colored, and Thorim hurls lightning, so they are both Aesir. Also, Thorim and the ice/frost giants went to war, but the ice giants seem to be some form of Aesir as well (not matching S&L's description, but seemingly being a form of "storm giant"). It was not said that the Aesir and Aesir went to war. Loken or Thorim clearly are not mortal storm giants, but they also have not been actually said to be Aesir either, while storm giants should (in theory) be "storm giants." Interestingly, the Tribunal refers to the Aesir and Vanir as giants, but lists giants under "seed races" also including the earthen and vrykul. So, by my interpretation of your reasoning, the Tribunal regards the Aesir and Vanir as giants, but not (mortal-ish) giants... which may (confusingly) be correct. I do not know. I also do not know why there are two types of storm giants. It seems reasonable that a storm-based giant would be a "storm giant," and by extension a "storm giant" would be an Aesir. It also seems reasonable that based on S&L's info, an Aesir would be a titan. We both dismiss the idea of the storm giants like Gymer being titans, but you readily apply the same reasoning that makes them Aesir to the Keepers based on power scale (and a single quest name, even if you did not mention it).--SWM2448 23:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I may be misinterpreting, but I don't think "The Aesir and Vanir went to war" necessarily means the war was "Aesir vs. Vanir" - just that they were all involved in combat.

Marnak: Data suggests that impetus for global combat originated with prime designate Loken who neutralized all remaining Aesir and Vanir affecting termination of conflict.

Could that not refer to Loken's betrayal of the other Keepers? "Fate of the Titans" revealed that major battles took place at the Temples of Invention, Winter, and Life (resulting in Mimir, Hodir, and Freya being captured). Tyr and Thorim were also "neutralized" because the former disappeared (for some reason) and the latter was driven into a stupor (as a direct result of Loken's actions). Egrem (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Confirming the Statues of the original races in Uldaman

In the titan trivia section it is stated that According to some statues scattered around Uldaman, the original five races of the world were trolls, earthen, tauren, mountain giants, and sea giants.

I can only suspect that this is a Source book quote as i can find no such statues in game. It seams to me that such a statement is of monumental importance in Warcraft's history and is in dire need of a citation.

Marbo1 (talk) 03:54, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

As discussed here and here, that note is based on unused statues scattered around Uldaman's model files. It should probably be removed. Edit: I have removed the trivia note, along with the rambling that followed it. I kept the cited furbolg comment.--SWM2448 04:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Titans are gods

I can't believe we missed this...

"The Titans, colossal, metallic-skinned gods from the far reaches of the cosmos"

2nd Paragraph 1st page, [1]

--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:24, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I counter with "Also, the benevolent titans, though not gods themselves, cast a magical slumber upon the Old Gods and imprisoned them far below the surface of the world." -- The Warcraft Encyclopedia/Gods -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Altrough i really hate this point, that specific article didn't survive the transition to the new website while the hystory of warcraft short series, which i think makes it sligthly mroe canon... if we read both points they directly contradict each other so yeah, only blizzard can answer this one i guess--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I say to cite both and note the discrepancy.--SWM2448 01:39, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Ashbear, the history page still says Sargeras battled the eredar before his fall. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 01:43, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm fully aware of that short story age but it's a direct contradiction between 2 different sources(one survived while the other didn't).--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:47, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think either of your reasons invalidates either source.--SWM2448 01:49, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I know, my problem is with classing them as gods in the templates.--Ashbear160 (talk) 01:55, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I dislike some navigation templates for this reason. They present what they list as irrefutable yet uncited fact.--SWM2448 02:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I try to make them as canon as possible, like i said before i'm open to cricism and to explain certain parts that some might not understand

But for template purposes should i consider them gods or not gods?--Ashbear160 (talk) 02:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

My personal feeling is that since the source that say they aren't gods are newer and more numerous than the one that says they are (which has been retconned multiple times since and has not been updated), leave them off unless we get an explicit confirmation that says otherwise. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 03:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

As the Encyclopedia says: There are no hard and fast rules to define what it means to be a god in Warcraft, save that all gods are immortal. So there is no real definition of a god in the Warcraft universe and without a definition, there is no contradiction. Immortal means in Warcraft that they are resistant to sickness and injury, but can be killed --LemonBaby (talk) 14:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

As far as i know, only one source stated that they aren't gods (the first issue of the warcraft saga avodided any words that implied divinity, but it didn't state their actual divine status), i asked in Sol they haven't be able to give me another source, it's still contradicting information regardless.--Ashbear160 (talk) 17:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

LemonBaby, even without a precise definition, it makes it clear that being a god does actually mean something and isn't just a title. Beyond which, the fact that one source directly states they ARE gods and another directly states they AREN'T is the very definition of a contradiction. I know there are other sources stating they aren't, it's just a matter of finding them. I know for a fact, though, that the only ones that said they were gods were the Warcraft 3 manual (and all the places it's been copied) and Shadows & Light (which downgraded them to demigods, and is now non-canon to boot). -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 17:17, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

But even in our world there is no clear definition what it means to be a god. So maybe they are gods because they created worlds and are immortal. But maybe they are not because they can die and are not almighty. It is just a matter of what definition is used. World of Warcraft does not have a definition of a god so maybe it is ok to describe them sometimes as such and sometimes not. It is just a matter of perspective.--LemonBaby (talk) 17:55, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

LemonBaby, when Blizzard uses statements like "Elune is one of the few true deities on Azeroth," it suggests that being a deity is a real thing. It's also something where you CAN'T use our real-world definition, because unlike the real world we know FOR A FACT that gods exist in Warcraft. We know FOR A FACT that it is a thing. "No hard and fast rules" doesn't mean that the thing doesn't exist, just that there's no solid, singular definition. If your interpretation were the case, why would Blizzard have that entire article about gods in which they give important details and question whether a god can be killed? -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 18:02, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, there are gods in Warcraft. There is just no common sense what that means.--LemonBaby (talk) 18:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Aesir and Vanir outside the RPG

We should probably put all the RPG-related info in its own section (since most of it is no longer canon), so I was wondering: Is there any indication of there being aesir and vanir subraces outside the RPG?--Ijffdrie (talk) 12:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The Tribunal of Ages used the terms in an unknown context. It may refer to storm giants and earth giants (the translations of the terms), but "earth giants" are not a type of giant seen in WoW. Half a dozen things are called a "stone giant" though. The are recently released of the Pantheon does have their skin as platinum or bronze, so there is that.--SWM2448 17:08, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Names

Should the alternate names have a separate section? It looks messy having so many listed as the first sentence. Only "Makers" and "Creators" are used by titan constructs. The other names are just things various other groups/individuals call them. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 08:40, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

more titans?

https://twitter.com/Muffinus/status/607424554936365056?lang=he those who we know of searching fo more titans. "They don't, there are multiple titans, they are searching the cosmos for additional Titans."(Yuvyuv111 (talk) 11:48, 15 June 2015 (UTC))

Skin

What type of skin do they have according to the Chronicle? --Mordecay (talk) 19:13, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Page 13: "The titans are colossal godlike beings composed of the primordial matter from which the universe was born."

Page 19: "When the titans finally awoke, they did so as living worlds. Cosmic winds howled across their gigantic forms, bodies shrouded in a cloak of stardust, skin crisscrossed with silvery mountain peaks and oceans shimmering with latent magic."

So, basically they're humanoid-shaped walking planets. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 19:25, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Also nebulae. As for the bronze/platinum bodies, they still have their avatars.--SWM2448 19:27, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

What avatars ? They don't have avatars. Unless you meant the Keepers, but they are separate beings from the Titans. ShellShockLive (talk) 09:51, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

I meant that they had metallic skin for 14 years of lore (WC3 2002 to Chronicle 2016). It's been 2 years since UVG, the last mention of it. Chronicle says they are "like walking worlds," "living worlds," had "skin crisscrossed with silvery mountain peaks and oceans shimmering with latent magic." When Sargeras destroyed Mardum, "fel volcanoes ignited across his once-noble form, splitting his skin apart and revealing an endless furnace of blistering hate." So titans look like worlds with mountains and magic oceans. Sargeras' being fel volcanoes and presumably fel oceans. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

It says their skin is riddled with rivers and mountains and forests etc. They're literally living planets. ShellShockLive (talk) 23:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Titans, demons and dimensions

We know Feasel was talking specifically about Archimonde. Suppose Archimonde doesn't exist in all dimensions, that's fine, but a dimension without Titans makes no sense. There were originally an infinity of Sargeras, but now there's only one? Better yet: considering WoD, if there is only one of each demon, they can only be in one timeline at once. Kairoz tracks down a timeline at a time when the Legion is starting to corrupt the Horde, which makes WoD's timeline special, and Kairoz's even more. --g0urra[T҂C] 14:25, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, the whole transcending dimension thing never made sense to me. In my headcanon Azeroth and Draenor are in the same timeline/universe so they have access to the same demons, Kairoz just copy-pasted a Draenor from another timeline into our own Xporc (talk) 14:33, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Hehe, true that one and infinity bullshit is crazy, but in the tweet Feasel said that titans do not transcend realities, which is ok, no? Each reality has its own titans. What about Sargeras and demons? I don't want to dig into that. --Mordecay (talk) 14:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Maybe it's something stupid like that The One movie where each time titan-sargeras betrays the Pantheon, he transcend his dimension and become one with the real demonic Sargeras, making him 10000000x more powerful! I should get a writer job for this. Xporc (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

We would all make fine writers for Warcraft lore, sadly that ain't happening. And I hope no one ever needs to bridge Feasel's tweets regarding timelines and demons to existing lore, because it would be a disgrace.

Mordecay, I think you're missing the point here. Feasel saying that Titans do not transcend realities is NOT ok, no. The only purpose of this tweet is to strengthen his previous outlandish statement that contradicts too many established lore points. And it's showing how shallow his thinking was when he decided that it was the same Archimonde we had killed in our dimension (which I'll call here "C-137" for comedic purposes) that died at the Black Gate in WoD's timeline.

Since many demons, including whom the ones we come across in different timelines, sometimes for the same events (Caverns of Time for example) such as Sargeras, Archimonde or Illidan, started out as mortals or a Titan, there used to be an infinity of Sargerases, Archimondes, and Illidans, but "demons don't work like that". So for some reason Kairoz, a minor bronze dragon from dimension C-137, can pick up the trail of the Legion in some other dimension, the same bastards who "transcend all realities" should recognize us and our leaders because, when we kill them, they merely go back to the Twisting Nether waiting for a summoner, like Pokémon. And they shouldn't be caught unawares by us.

So, if you don't want to dig into the implications of such an inflammatory claim, please don't force it back onto lore pages.

I am suggesting we remove from main lore sections and heavily encase these tweets in trivia sections since Blizzard hasn't deigned to gratify them with a comment yet.

Because if we disregard Feasel's claim about demons transcending all dimensions, that quote is rendered moot because there would be no useful comparison to make. If we leave the quote, we stand by all of this nonsense.--KIROCHI) 15:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Actually the claim was first made by Alex Afrasiabi, who I deem generally more reliable. But it still goes against logic.--KIROCHI) 15:50, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Feasel is neither a lore guy nor a writer, he did not decide to make AU Archimonde the same as MU Archimonde.

As for the rest, there is no issue, at all, if you consider that no alternate universe truly exists, until it is brought to reality. Kairoz was browsing through all the possible timelines/universes, saw one that he liked, and brought it to life, he made it real. Until then, it was in a sort of limbo state, existing but not really at the same time.

It's sort of like Illuvatar's creation of Ea in Tolkien's work, there is first a "vision" of the world, and the Ainur could go there and feel the grass and the wind, but Eru made it real, brought it to life, only after. So since alternate universes don't exist until they have been interacted with, there isn't an infinity of pre-corruption Sargeras or Kil'jaeden elsewhere.

It wouldn't make sense if that was the case: what would stop Sargeras from just corrupting an infinity of titans from other universes? Why would both the Legion and the void lords focus on this particular universe when there are a thousand more? The answer is this. This is the main timeline, the main universe. So titans not transcending all universes is not an issue, since there isn't any other universe. Other AU are in a limbo state, they're not really there. Kairoz browsed through all the possible timelines, saw one that fit his vision, and brought it to reality. This is somewhat confirmed by the fact that Aman'thul himself called this the main timeline. That the AU versions of everyone during the trial of Garrosh just vanished, they just disappeared, stopped existing, once each of them understood their personal issue. And that AU Draenor only keeps existing because of the shards of the Vision of Time, otherwise it'd probably vanish too or something.

At least I think this is the theory that makes the more sense. -- MyMindWontQuiet 16:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Not buying it. The demons in AU are very real, very connected to the Twisting Nether, and very much not transcending all realities. And no, I will not consider that no alternate universe truly exists until it is brought to reality. It makes no sense because it would give C-137 Nozdormu and some of his underlings the power to create infinite realities. Why would Aman'thul allow a beast the power to create and conquer infinite universes, infinite demons and infinite Old Gods from scratch? How do you explain that the same Archimonde and Kil'jaeden who transcend all realities are invading another dimension of Kairoz's invention and don't even have a better knowledge of the planet and its "Main Universe Only Universe" history?

I am not challenging Feasel's tweet, I'm entirely dismissing it because it's based on something Afrasiabi said and makes no sense because of this.

Also, could I please get a source to your claim that Aman'thul has claimed C-137 is the main timeline?--KIROCHI) 16:25, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't get your point about demons. Of course they are real, who said the opposite? However they do transcend reality, that's fact. The Archimonde that showed up in WoD was the same Archimonde we fought at Hyjal.

"It makes no sense because it would give C-137 Nozdormu and some of his underlings the power to create infinite realities" So, sort of like Kairoz, a bronze dragon, did with the Vision of Time.

"Why would Aman'thul allow" He gave Nozdormu the power to watch over these timelines. The Vision of Time is something entirely different that required enormous power to even create, Nozdormu can't just pop 38 new alternate realities as he wishes. However bronze dragons very much can bring alternate people from alternate universes as they want, temporarily. Vision of Time made it permanent, and is on a much bigger scale, not just a few people but an entire world/reality.

"could I please get a source to your claim that Aman'thul has claimed C-137 is the main timeline" Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise. You must protect it. Without the truth of time as it is meant to unfold, more will be lost than you can possibly imagine. The fabric of reality will unravel. It is a heavy task--the base of all tasks of this world, for nothing can transpire without time.

Only one true timeline. The others are alternate timelines that are found in a limbo state until they are made real. I'm not saying this theory is perfect, but it just makes infinitely more sense and solves nearly everything. With this theory, you don't have an infinity of Sargeras available at any moment. You don't have both the Legion and the void lords focus on this particular universe, on this particular Azeroth, when there is 39920328 other universes out there. You don't have the paradox of having demons unique across all realities yet what happens to demons that were not born demons, such as Kil'jaeden, if they are unique then there shouldn't be an infinity of pre-corruption Kil'jaeden in other universes, and the paradox of what would happen if these Kil'jaeden became demons in turn, because then you'd have several demon Kil'jaeden when it's stated that demons are unique. And finally you don't have the issue of Sargeras deciding to cleanse the universe when there are 39203 others out there. No, only one timeline, one universe, one Aman'thul, one of everyone, no demon paradox, no focus issue. -- MyMindWontQuiet 16:44, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

That quote from Aman'Thul is about the destiny and fate of our single universe. It's not a statement about the multiverse, which is confirmed to be a multiverse by Afrasiabi. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 16:59, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

The theory I talked about means that the Warcraft universe is still a multiverse, no contradiction here. -- MyMindWontQuiet 18:38, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

You're basing the belief that demons transcend reality only over the same thing that was said about Archimonde. It's literally the only demon we've ever specifically heard about that's supposed to transcend realities. And Archimonde doesn't even do anything at the Black Gate that shows he is the same as at Mount Hyjal. He reuses the same lieutenants who failed and tries to fight, almost on its own, an army of heroes he has already been defeated by, for some of them.

If all these demons are transcending realities, but AU doesn't exist until it is created, then how can you possibly say that they are real since some of them are duplicates?

Kairoz supposedly sent himself and Garrosh to a reality where Garrosh was never born... Not "the one where the demons we all know and have fought are appearing to attack at"!

Or else, since you believe demons transcend all realities, just because Kairoz chose that reality, all the demons suddenly decide to relocate there!

If the Vision of Time creates a timeline instead of merely bridging it and ours together, but there are already demons in that timeline, it means that any timeline Kairoz would have picked would have created demons that never existed in the first place.

This is not a theory that solves nearly everything, it's a bad hypothesis that creates more loopholes than it plugs at best.

If demons transcend realities, then there is only one Mannoroth, and everything he's done in MU is still vivid in his mind.

So on the one hand, Kairoz browses all available realities and picks one that looks , and on the other hand, whichever dimension he picks we're supposed to believe that all demons will flock there without even knowing that they're in a dimension that didn't even exist before?

That makes zero sense. Them's fighting words :D

Btw what you gave me is an unsourced quote, I wish you had understood what I was expecting here.--KIROCHI) 17:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Chill guys, it's not up to us to decide what is and isn't canon Xporc (talk) 18:03, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm perfectly chill, just came to share a theory that could solve some of the issues Kirochiosef had, not sure why they're being so aggressive however.

As for the quote, it's from Dawn of the Aspects.

As for the rest, there is just no debate to have, I really don't get your point. If this is what they have stated, it is canon. One can build around that, but there's no changing that. So no, it's not that "I believe" that demons transcend all realities, it's that they do. It's not that I believe that WoD Archimonde is the same as WC3 Archimonde, it's that he is. -- MyMindWontQuiet 18:38, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Aaactually just a small note regarding Cot!Hyjal-Archimonde, there's a blue post saying that the encounter is a "time pocket" and "not a part of the history" so Archimonde may not know us (the adventurers that fight him at the Black Gate). He would recognize Warcraft 3 heroes only. Alas, Thrall didn't fight him at the Gate. --Mordecay (talk) 18:46, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I said WC3 Archimonde, not TBC Archimonde. Ah yeah and by "we" I meant the players, still thinking of WC3. They admitted themselves that the TBC encounter was just a way for us to experience the battle and nothing more. -- MyMindWontQuiet 18:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Before that, u said "The Archimonde that showed up in WoD was the same Archimonde we fought at Hyjal." I understood "we" as raiders in TBC, not WC 3 players. --Mordecay (talk) 18:57, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, my bad. I don't even like that the TBC encounter exists. At least the wisps still got to do the job, while in WoD we killed him ourselves. -- MyMindWontQuiet 19:07, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

I owe you an apology for the aggressiveness, and you may use "he, him, his" pronouns with me safely.

That being said, I am willing to raise my point once again to plead for broader critical thinking with this issue. I am used to assuming everything that comes from Blizzard officials who are allowed to speak in their employers' stead is supported accordingly by the ulterior lore picture we'll get. Unfortunately when gaping plotholes appear and Occam's razor points you to the source of discrepancy, with several more hints that consistency was not exactly what they were excited to reveal (I'm having the same kind of issue with Khadgar's quest line that suggested Naaru are a creation of Elune), you have to make a choice.

In the end, it won't matter who's right, and we indeed are not supposed to decide which way the pendulum will swing. What we are doing, however, is allowing a lore statement that is still new, not hinted at in the slightest in Chronicle, which is supposed to lay out the standard and reveal the basics of creation, onto the first paragraphs WoWpedia's readers are going to notice when looking for information.

I think it belongs further into the Demon article, preferably after everything that has been established beyond any doubt that works with the rest of the story. In the Titan article, I don't see the mention any better on the top of the article, because the basis is even thinner then, and not very helpful for understanding the whole picture.--KIROCHI) 22:22, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Kirochi is right, that passage is not very clear and cannot be used as base of the sentiment used in this article. --g0urra[T҂C] 08:57, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Re Archimonde: If they are one and the same, then why did he appear at Hyjal (WC3) if we had already killed him in WoD? Dave Kosak has already said that we killed him at Hellfire Citadel, and this time for good. --g0urra[T҂C] 11:30, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Because he was first killed at Hyjal returned to Nether and then years later he was summoned to the Black Gate and killed for good as per Kosak. Kosak also said that his final death will probably be made non-canon at some point. It is the same as us, we traveled to the AU Draenor in the past (year -4 or -2) from Azeroth's Year 31 and Archimonde and Mannoroth did the same. I'm still surprised ppl don't get that. --Mordecay (talk) 11:34, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Mordecay is right. WoD is not our past, it's another universe. WoD is not situated 30 years ago into our past, it's another universe, that is parallel to ours: just like it is right now 2pm in western Europe but 7am in eastern US at the same time, it was also year 30-31 on Azeroth and year -2 on Draenor, at the same time. It's not a past, it's a concurrent event.

From Archimonde's point of view: he dies at Hyjal during the Third War, returns to the Nether, reforms, does who knows what, then is sent to this new Draenor that just appeared to conquer it. -- MyMindWontQuiet 11:43, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Mordecay, if Mannoroth in the alternative universe is the same in our universe, are you meaning to say that the orcs in our universe shouldn't have been corrupted? Or at what point does "all realities" not include alternate universes or dimensions? --g0urra[T҂C] 12:43, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

You really need to understand that this is not our past. Nothing that happened or that could have happened on AU Draenor would've affected our past, nothing would've affected our timeline. It's a separate timeline.

From Mannoroth's point of view: he corrupted the orcs in the MU, was killed by Grom, reformed in the Nether, was sent to (AU) Draenor to corrupt the AU orcs, was killed by AU Grom, then was ressucitated by AU Gul'dan and died again. -- MyMindWontQuiet 12:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

That's how I understand it as well. Warlords of Draenor is not our past, merely a past from another reality that was duct-tapped to our Azeroth through the Dark Portal. Xporc (talk) 12:52, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. It's an alternate universe. Right now, if I took the universe, duplicated it, and did stuff in that universe-copy, it wouldn't effect the least the original universe. Well this is the exact same thing here, it just happens that this AU is also 30 years late chronologically. -- MyMindWontQuiet 12:54, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Are you meaning to say that in this alternate universe, the corruption of the orcs didn't happen at the same point in the timeline?

And how do you know that it was "duct-taped" to coincide with the current events? From my understanding Kairoz went back in time to an alternate Draenor, made the orcs aware of the events in our universe, made them establish their power and eventually time went on so they invaded our world. If I'm wrong then please do point out. --g0urra[T҂C] 12:57, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

> Are you meaning to say that in this alternate universe, the corruption of the orcs didn't happen at the same point in the timeline?

Sure, why not? It's a different reality. Garrosh was never born, Rulkan is still alive. So some details will vary. Xporc (talk) 13:11, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes. In the MU, the orcs drank the Blood in Year -3. In the AU they refused to drink in Year -2. -- MyMindWontQuiet 13:57, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Garrosh, not Kairoz. Garrosh killed Kairoz right after they appeared in Nagrand, before Kairoz could do anything basically. And AU drinking happened in Year -4. The WoD cinematic starts with "35 years ago", which from Azeroth's Year 31 is then -4 in AU Draenor. The -2 Year likely comes from this (implying that building of the machinery took 2 years), but we know from the Hellscream short story, the Stranger comic and the Cinematic that all three happened in a shorter interval (weeks or months - the connection of how Gul'dan wants to rally the clans is mentioned in all three). --Mordecay (talk) 14:08, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Distinguished colleagues, let me read to you from your holy book: the Mount Hyjal encounter with Archimonde is a "time pocket" and "not a part of the history". So this is not the same Archimonde as MU Archimonde. Hence, there are or have been more than one Archimonde. Consequentially, Archimonde doesn't transcend all realities. That is impossible.

Unless you'd rather disprove everything in World of Warcraft, which is the source of canon lore, and doesn't risk being retconned when it's heavily backed with knowledge from several characters with clear conclusions, you cannot put these two tweets on the same level as the game.

We are not writing the lore: we are maintaining a wiki and making it consistent for our readers, to the best of Warcraft's logic.

It is time you stop sticking to your guns, invoking arguments of authority (because I can too, and you wouldn't like them) and writing fan fiction regarding there only being one timeline to lie to yourself : these statements belong in the trivia, notes or speculation sections. Not anywhere else. This is what is going to happen on the Demon article and any others featuring that nonsense.--KIROCHI) 16:55, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

It's more that the TBC MH raid is non-canonical. While not explicitly stating that was the case, they rescinded the previous story tie-ins for that raid. And just threw up their hands, because "phat purples". --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:22, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, I'm not sure if it's mentioned on the pages here (it's something I've pointed out on MMO-C several times), but the original intent was that WoD-universe would be a completely separate with its own Twisting Nether (and hence Legion).

"Question, with the Draenor we travel to in WoD. Is this Draenor connected to our Twisting nether, or an alternate one?"

"Likely an entire separate universe, but we're not addressing it in the expansion. Focus is Draenor!"[2]

And Muffinus' redacted tweets about AU and MU Archimondes.[3] This was apparently changed for HFC so it would be more dramatic for us to fight the same Arch we defeated in WC3. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:29, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

It isn't any more dramatic, and it screws up everything. And no, it has to be canonical, because the attunement questline to the Black Temple requires you to go there. I'm amazed at the speed people are willing to pick up the latest paper-thin evidence to sacrifice the rest of the lore.--KIROCHI) 17:37, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

The attunement quests say the Infinites were interfering with time, but Blizzard rescinded all previous story ties to that instance. See: Battle for Mount Hyjal#Infinite dragonflight. They decanonized those quests. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm either dumb or hardheaded, but nowhere do I read these quests are decanonized in the section you just linked to.--KIROCHI) 17:48, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

"There's no intended link to the Infinite Dragonflight or their dastardly deeds of altered timeways, and you're not literally interacting with history." This is a redaction of the previous attunement quests and instance descriptions. "admittedly the Mount Hyjal instance isn't really linked to the world for any rhyme or reason." --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:57, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

That's not what I think it means by 'history', but this is getting lengthy and could be given more time to actually show up in game. Sorry for the aggressiveness and thank you for your time. I will leave you with one last point, but I won't argue: how does _the_ one Kil'jaeden decide to corrupt the one Gul'dan that _happens_ to be in Kairoz's dimension-in-a-box, and not understand better what's coming for them? Replaying an almost identical corruption scenario without learning from their errors in a dimension that is strangely calling for them? Did the Legion look prepared, or even prompt to react to the arrival of C-137's Horde and Alliance technology, and then massive armies? Or did AU Gul'dan and Kairoz serve as pawns to put Sargeras inside Illidan? I'm always very concerned with statements regarding AU Archimonde made around that time, since it seems they said he was defeated "for good" even though AU Draenor isn't in the Twisting Nether, I just find these tweets silly.--KIROCHI) 22:43, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

You're forgetting the part where KJ's plan worked perfectly in the MU, at least for what the original purpose was, wrecking the draenei. So no reason it wouldn't work this time too. Those plans were of course foiled by the interference of Garrosh from another timeline.

As for the rest, Kil'jaeden answered that somewhat, the difference between the AU Draenor invasion and the Third Invasion of Azeroth is that in the AU, Gul'dan had to do everything by himself. On Azeroth, he merely needed to turn the key.

Anyway, this is all a matter of opinion in the end, and opinions should not have any say on a wiki. We keep that sentence, it's official lore. Whether it contradicts the rest of the lore or not is for the reader to decide. For you, for me, as individuals. We, the wiki, only provide the readers the tools to make up their own mind, that's the purpose of a wiki: we don't have the right to decide which dev statement we should keep or not. And I don't think this is debatable. -- MyMindWontQuiet 09:31, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Demon transcending the multiverse (or alternate universes specifically) is also confirmed in the Illidan novel where Vandel saw a vision of the Crusade where Archimonde, Kil'jaeden and Sargeras (no plural for them!) destroy all (possible) worlds. Bye. --Mordecay (talk) 13:58, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

"Bye"? That's as cute as it's egregious. Am I supposed to believe you when you don't quote anything clearly and have already interpreted several statements exactly however you wanted? I'll read the novel and give you a piece of mine. This isn't over xD--KIROCHI) 21:08, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh boy have you seen how many inconsistencies within that novel are referenced on WoWpedia already? Sorry for poisoning the well, but I'm far from done...--KIROCHI) 21:19, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Please, do tell. --Mordecay (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Titans and dimensions

Hello, I have been reading Wowpedia for years but have only created an account now. I would like to start a discussion on a sensitive topic but I am quite lost and I apologize if this is not the right way to do it. On the Titans page, it is stated that "Titans do not transcend realities". The source of this statement is a tweet from Jeremy Feasel. However, in the thread of this very tweet, another tweeter user points out that he is wrong and he eventually apologizes for his original tweet. (Source: https://twitter.com/Muffinus/status/608068458694246401 you can scroll up to see the entire thread) Because of this, I would be more inclined to consider that the Titans DO in fact transcend realities, rather than the opposite. I think we should at least explain the uncertainty of the matter in the trivia rather than limit ourselves to the very first tweet of the discussion. What do you think ? --Malorne dmo (talk) 15:10, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

That was in regards to Feasel tweeting about there being an AU Archimonde and AU Legion Sargeras.

Q: Main Universe. Because Demons exist outside of timelines. They just go back to the Nether.
A: Not really, AU Archimonde is dead until AU Sargeras revives him. Reviving takes a while.
AU Archimonde contains a lot of knowledge MU Archimonde didn't have, this is important.

He later deleted that tweet.

--Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 16:11, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The tweet has been deleted yes, and more specifically, it is the only tweet of this serie that has been deleted. I found this forum post which lists the whole conversation (https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/14899490424?page=7). Because Muffinus deleted this particular tweet, it cut the Twitter thread in two parts. Part 1: https://twitter.com/muffinus/status/607435429508317184 and Part 2: https://twitter.com/muffinus/status/607438653439143938

So I think that, clearly, Muffinus or someone else at Blizzard wanted this particular tweet deleted from the thread because it was just plain wrong.Malorne dmo (talk) 19:33, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I think I just got what you meant: that the "I was wrong" tweet was referring to the AU Sargeras one and not the original tweet I was referring to (about Titans not transcending realities.) But then we have an issue: Sargeras is transcending realities, but the other titans are not ? Maybe through his exposition to fel, just like Archimonde and the other eredars ? That's rather dangerous because what would prevent him from conquering an alternate Azeroth then infuse her with fel as well to have her transcend realities then use her to attack us in our timeline ? Malorne dmo (talk) 10:57, 27 February 2018 (UTC)