Talk:Gender and sexuality

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few comments about harpies and forlarren? Noobi666 (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a work in progress. You are welcome to help out.Baggins (talk) 18:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

thanks. An about sexuality, do you think that this:(http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?item=43632) hints bout Sylvanas´ one? Noobi666 (talk) 18:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Well I think its saying that they all want to get married to other men, together, not to each other, :p.Baggins (talk) 18:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

"get married together" Noobi666 (talk) 18:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Getting married together can mean that all want have their marriage services at the same time. Not necessarily that they all want to marry each other. I honestly don't think incest was on her mind...Baggins (talk) 18:22, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to concur with Mr. Baggins. The context of "together" includes "grow up" here; it sounds like a little girl's wish that she and her two sisters (one who married Rhonin, and one who has a child with Turalyon) could all have happy lives and be together forever. Having been a little girl once myself, I find it conclusive. Tiraline (talk) 16:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

yeah, i know, but you know what it sounds like ;) Noobi666 (talk) 18:24, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

You think that sounds risky? You should read the german translation of WotA and DotD. DotD alone has enough moment where I wondered if the person that is talked about is naked, but all four books (at least by the german choice of words, need to read the original yet)make it sound as if Malygos mates with males...--Maibe (talk) 21:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

really? Noobi666 (talk) 15:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, each and every time Malygos' mates are mentioned they took the male term as translation (except for one time I think)--Maibe (talk) 15:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I would say that Saragosa is definetly female. Is there a convention in German for having all dragons referred to as male? That's the only intentional reason for the oversight I can see.

I'm really not sure about this page. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 21:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Not what I meant *laughs* Saragosa came later and is still female ingame. What I meant was simply that, not ingame, but in the translation of the novels they used to translate the word -mate- -consort- etc with the male term (Gefaehrte, for example) instead of using the female term. That happened in all novels where Malygos and his mates are mentioned, except for a single occasion. Ingame he mates with females...and apparently has too much libido for those he has...why else would he try to make Keristrasza another mating partner?--Maibe (talk) 23:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

A replacement.--SWM2448 23:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it said even before (when you have to free Keri the first time) that Malygos wanted her to mate with him, she refused, he locked her in a crytsal and shattered said crystal, or did I get something wrong?--Maibe (talk) 02:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Maibe, what about Neltharion's mates? or Saridormi? do they use female terms? (note that this does count as editorial, a "lost in translation" section could be added)--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:25, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

They are all referred to as females. I'd have to look all the parts in the book the aspects' consorts are mentioned, but if I remember correctly Malygos' consort always (as said, except for once) get the male term, while all other female consorts get the female term. This even happens when there is no need to use the male/general term to, for example, avoid a repetition of words.--Maibe (talk) 00:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

From the Tcg

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/wow/en/news/article.aspx?aid=4711 The concubine card to be added to this article?--Maibe (talk) 15:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

is carved ogre idol "art" ? Noobi666 (talk) 15:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

ye, sure you should add it. and maybe few words about "concubines", i don't know if she is sex slave, or Illidan has perversions....Noobi666 (talk) 15:42, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Never uploaded pictures to wiki yet. and...going by the flavour text...I think the second is it...--Maibe (talk) 15:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

You know there's other people than Illidan in Black Temple, right? g0urra[T҂C] 15:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

you know who concubines are? and btw, their comments are pretty ...ehm, "suggestive", should be added to Quotes? Noobi666 (talk) 15:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know what concubines are. But there's other blood elves in Black Temple. g0urra[T҂C] 15:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

...and they are succubus in belf form, i think that no one normal person would ever [censored] demons, even attractive ones Noobi666 (talk) 15:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Temple Concubines are not demons. g0urra[T҂C] 15:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

ye, but concubines are Noobi666 (talk) 15:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Concubine and Temple Concubine is not the same. Concubines are in Karazhan, while Temple Concubines are in Black Temple. g0urra[T҂C] 16:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

If you think about that, Illidan wouldn't allow anything on the black temple just to please his allieds... Anyway, they do fit here and yet, this is another reference from the Arabic culture so explored on TBC. And only the girls on Karazan are demons and undeads, not the ones on BT Azahel (talk) 15:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Azahel, concubinage is NOT exclusive or even typical of Arabic culture. Yes, concubines can be added, but it's possible that Blizzard didn't use a strict definition.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if they meant something more like "temple prostitute"--but of course can't use that term because you'd better believe the rating would become "M" in a heartbeat. Tiraline (talk) 16:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

(from Wikipedia:) Concubinage is the state of a woman or youth in an ongoing, quasi-matrimonial relationship with a man of higher social status. Typically, the man has an official wife and, in addition, one or more concubines. Concubines have limited rights of support from the man, and their offspring are publicly acknowledged as the man's children, albeit of lower status than children born by the official wife or wives; these legal rights distinguish a concubine from a mistress. Noobi666 (talk) 16:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

They're probably using a fancier and less controversial word, even though it's a different meaning. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Ragestorm, go to black temple, take a look at the place where the concubines are, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_(household), then read my post again and you'll understand what i meant Azahel (talk) 16:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Before this gets out of hand, gents: relevance check. What does the matter of concubinage being Arabic in origin/practice or not have to do with the topic of the article here? And is it worth getting in a fight? Tiraline (talk) 16:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Added polygamy to sexualityNoobi666 (talk) 16:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

And I added a "speculation" tag. Noobi, we really don't know what the relationships are in BT. Don't take offense, but we just don't know at this time. Tiraline (talk) 16:23, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

?

Nobody is fighting... anyway, yeah, the card is a good add but i still can think of a thousand of things that can be added to this page, it needs some control though so it won't become a spam with every two meaning words being posted Azahel (talk) 16:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

ofc, thanks Azahel Noobi666 (talk) 16:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

no, no fight, this is how we discuss.:-) Anyway, Azahel, see your point about Harems, and you're right, this page needs to be tightly regulated. However, there are, by my count, three admins involved atm, so that should be enough to keep order. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

gourra, polygamy is only just non verified fact, so dont delete it. ? means speculation Noobi666 (talk) 16:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

"Speculation" does not mean "non verified fact". The concubines are there in the Black Temple, which Illidan owns. That's all we know. There is NO FACT AT ALL that those concubines are for the pleasure of Illidan. g0urra[T҂C] 16:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

BTW, speculation is rarely allowed, and usually has to be tightly cited. It also doesn't go in the middle of an article. Speculation sections must be at the end of an article. "Polygamy" means multiple marriage. A concubine is someone who lives with a man without being married. So the use of term is a bit innacurate.Baggins (talk) 00:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what to call the assumption that the concubines are just there for the other blood elves to use and Illidan, who considers himself practically divine, just sits on the roof with a skull pining for Tyrande. Naive, maybe? Blind loyal fandom? Not sure. Point being, yea there are other blood elves in black temple, as well as naga and fel orcs and demons. And there's Illidan. But, since this is a T rated game, we're not going to actually see Illidan go down off the roof and have relations witht he concubines, we're not going to see actual proof of it.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 01:08, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Additions

Yes we have people monitoring this page but yet I don't like to see so much activity on a page from so many people with diferent thoughts, anyway, the part above is to talk about TCG.

Back to the subject, I think we could add some of the quotes on the flirt page, not all the of course, also, there's a part on the book "The Sundering" when Azshara tryes to seduce Illidan but is interrupted before the thigns get too far, could be a good exemple of this thread on official lore. Azshara herself is a good exemple of sexuality. Azahel (talk) 16:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

really? i have always thought she is just random maniac. could you link comments/something...ehm.."sexual"? Noobi666 (talk) 16:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

She is a random maniac

anyway, from The Sundering:

"Please! For you, I’m merely Azshara…" Her fingers ran from his eye sockets to the rest of his face. "Such a handsome face!" She touched his shoulder, pushing aside part of his clothing. "So strong, too…and with the mark of the Great One there as well!" "Truly you are favored by him…and, thus, favored by me," Queen Azshara whispered, drawing close again. "And there are many favors I can grant you, which even he cannot—" Azahel (talk) 17:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Azshara is probably the most overtly sexual character thus encountered. This may have been Knaak's active choice to counterbalance her to Tyrande. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Then of course there was the information about Aegwynn and Jonas sleeping together, and the conversation between Aegwynn and Nilas Aran about their one night stand. Course Aegwynn just comes off cold. She got what she wanted, and wanted nothing after that. Though I'm not sure what heading to put that kind of info under, and how to format it. Not to avoid resorting to victorian prudeness, i'm not sure "fornication" would quite cut it.Baggins (talk) 17:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The phrases you want, Mr. Baggins, are "premarital sex" and "extramarital sex." I would submit that there is no serious stigma attached in human culture to the former; can't speak to the latter. Tiraline (talk) 21:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

that's what i'm talking about, the page would be too big if we add everything we know. Anyway, another important icon would be [Sally Whitemane] Azahel (talk) 18:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

How is Whitemane an "important icon"? g0urra[T҂C] 18:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Not by herself obviously, but because of how she is taken as an icon, just to mention of course Azahel (talk) 18:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no way we could add everything, and thus we need to use well known examples. In fact some of the topics on the page, already go into their own topics. we have pages for male and female gender.Baggins (talk) 18:21, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

how Wanton Hostess are related to article? Noobi666 (talk) 20:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

You mean how are Wanton Hostesses related to this article? Given that "wanton" is probably not referring to the dumpling, I think it's safe to say there's a sexual connotation there. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 05:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Snickers at dumpling joke.Baggins (talk) 05:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Homosexuality

Are there actually any hints it exists on Azeroth and in Outland? There is Jarl's visitor at Swamplight Manor, but saying what he says at the end of his questline is an evidence would be far fetched and pretty full of prejudices. So, are there any serious hints/evidences?--Maibe (talk) 21:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Beyond the quilboar marriages between a female quilboar warrior to another female, not that I know of.Baggins (talk) 00:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Didn't know about that one. source?--Maibe (talk) 00:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

MOnster guide, its already int he article under gender identity section.Baggins (talk) 00:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah thanks. Missed that one.--Maibe (talk) 01:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

This subject comes up on the RP forums every now and then. In the lore, I'm yet to actually see such a reference. In quests apparently though it's suggested in places. From an RP perspective it's probably there somewhere, but from a lore and canon perspective, it's not there.--Dushi-du (talk) 11:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Sentinel Sweetspring? - Sikon (talk) 01:54, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

So far the most clear case of homosexuality has been Martek the Exiled, although he seems to be more on the bisexual side. Blizzard also teased it with Theralion's old voice and abilities but its best left inconclusive. I've made a mention of them in the article though --Neakal (talk) 15:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The male Blood-elves are decidedly swishy, though they make a good showing of machismo. The female Blood-elves are basically the same sort of swishy, but seem to have a more dominating presence, as though perhaps they are the dominant sex in their society, perhaps taking both female and male mates, while the males ... anyway... rather disappointed after playing a male BE for awhile, noticing how swishy they are. ;>jamvaru (talk) 15:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Thelaron Direneedle calls the player "Honey" in a quest, although he could just be peticular relaxed when adressing others. TherasTaneel (talk) 22:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Decided they are just comfortable with their 'sexuality'... casual, hippie style, but with bad attitudes, hahahahaha... ;>jamvaru (talk) 02:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Like rabbits?

Is he exaggerating or is it meant... literal?--Mordecay (talk) 19:53, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Based on the old reference (without citation) from an RPG developer saying it... It's probably literal. I left the qualifier, "according to" because it may just be exaggeration since Gaxim is a gnome and he says "it seems". --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Interspecies romance

Should we list example of people from different races dating? There are the obvious ones like Jaina Proudmoore/Kalecgos, Marvin Wobblesprocket/Tamara Wobblesprocket, all the humans dating Windrunner sisters, Azuregos and his spirit healer waifu, Grizzek and Sapphronetta, movie Medivh ... Xporc (talk) 10:18, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Me likey. -- Mordecay (talk) 10:36, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah sure why not! PeterWind (talk) 10:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Like I said on Discord, I feel like that's starting to go outside the original purpose of this page. It would probably be useful to have a list like that, but I'm not sure if this page is the best place for it. Maybe it could be included as a note on half-breed? In my experience, cases like Grizzek/Saffy and the Wobblesprockets are usually brought up by fans in the context of people asking what kinds of half-breeds exist on Azeroth, so readers might be more likely to find the information they're looking for if it's put on that page instead. Not sure, though. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 12:29, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I guess those couples would only be relevant to half-breed discussions in cases where they actually have kids. PeterWind (talk) 12:31, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Agreed with PW; between this page and the half-breed one, interspecies romances seem a bit more suited for this page, IMO. However, I guess a link in the half-breed page to a list of the romances could be present. -- Mordecay (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

I could swear I remember seeing threads on the /r/warcraftlore subreddit where someone asks about half-breeds and people bring up interracial couples that don't have kids, suggesting that people do find it relevant to half-breed discussions. But eh, I guess it makes more sense to put it on this page. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 12:55, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Rape In Warcraft

Surafbrov first and foremost thank you for what you do, and I understand the topic being discussed here is one that is dark and, quite frankly, an evil one. It is, however, something that is canonical that Blizzard has, on two occasions, felt necessary to include into the lore for plot and character development. Both entries are written professional and in an unbiased tone (with details lifted directly from the books) in accordance with wowpedia and article-page standards.

So here is my recommendation; either leave the addition on the page under the appropriate section, OR remove both sections regarding the topic as there is one under the RPG (mind you is non-canonical) as well. It makes no sense to remove one but to keep the other.

Let’s capture all lore, or no lore at all.

Aetyleus (talk) 11:49, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

More than two occasions; it's not as common as in other fantasy franchises but from memory there's also Keristrasza being forced by Malygos to become his new consort, Karlain's apprentice assaulting his wife, and pretty much every versions of Garona's backstory. Nith (talk) 15:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it can probably be added, let's just avoid tone-deaf shit like creating Category:Raped characters Xporc (talk) 15:52, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, the 'Rape' section under the RPG has already existed for quite some time.

This is precisely my point: World of Warcraft is a game that is, for all intents and purposes, an adult game with an extremely mature backstory. Rape, slavery, genocide, labor camps, etc are some of the countless atrocities and vehemently vile crimes that make the cornerstone of this horrific universe that we partake in. To document it is to acknowledge that unfortunate things do happen. World of Warcraft is a game of terrible deeds. To censor the lore is to ignore the story that Blizzard purposely, and specifically, wrote for development. Either include all of it, or none of it (and that goes for all crimes) - but at the end of the day this was, and is, BLIZZARD's writing and if there is an issue with it, CDEV needs to be petitioned.

Aetyleus (talk) 15:58, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

The way it was first described was over the line with how things were implied from the book. Also to be clear, didn't even know the RPG section existed. — SurafbrovWarcraft Wiki administrator T / C 18:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Move to "Gender and sexuality"

I think it would make more sense if this article was merged with gender and renamed to the combined title "Gender and sexuality", since the current gender article is IMO pretty useless, mostly consisting of a dictionary definition, and the sexuality article already discusses many topics of gender roles and identity, which aren't strictly the same thing as sexuality (correct me if my understanding of the terminology is off, I'm not an expert on these topics). -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 15:47, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not an expert either, but with your explanation it makes sense. So you have my vote +1 --Ryon21 (talk) 02:37, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

sounds like a great idea to me. +1 Eithris (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

What everyone else said. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 07:27, 2 February 2022 (UTC)