Talk:First War

Durotan murder

I'm not sure where Durotan's murder belongs in the timeline. It may even belong in the entry on the Second War. I know Blizzard hasn't been very good with continuity here (see the entry on Grom Hellscream and the speculation about his age for another example), but in the novel about Thrall's journey from being IN thrall to Warchief of the new Horde, "Lord of the Clans", Durotan was assassinated shortly after meeting in secret with Orgrim Doomhammer, who led the Horde at the time. This either means that the meeting happened during the Second War instead of the first as the manual for Warcraft III says, or simply that Durotan and Doomhammer met during the First War but AFTER Doomhammer's coup against Blackhand. Another indication that Durotan was killed during the Second War instead of the first is that he had met with Doomhammer to tell him about Gul'dan's treachery and manipulation. Doomhammer was convinced and told Durotan that Gul'dan would be dealt with soon, and he was sincere when he said it. It doesn't seem likely that Doomhammer would learn what Gul'dan had been up to in the final days of the First War and then wait until the Second War to go after him.

I know this arguement is fairly old, but I agree. It doesn't seem likely to me that Durotan died during the Fist War. At the very least he died at the end of the First War or at some point during the Second. Warchiefthrall 11:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Second sentence

Where it says "The human kingdom of Azeroth was completely destroyed". Shouldn't it be Arathor instead?

Neither really, Stormwind was a Kingdom in it's own right. The eastern continent (then) comprising of Stormwind, Khaz Modan and Lordaeron as well as city states that are mentioned on the Arathor page. --Paynes 21:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Different definitions defining different sized areas of land. See, Azeroth (Azeroth, Azeroth (continent), Kingdom of Azeroth), and Stormwind, Stormwind City...Baggins 21:46, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

But can we agree that to use the term Azeroth here is a bit vague when it not 100% true in any sense. As the entire continent was not taken after the first war nor the southern area of the continent. --Paynes 21:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually alot of sources state that the "kingdom of Azeroth" was taken, :p. Also point of note, Khaz Modan, Lordaeron, and Azeroth are considered seperate continents of the eastern kingdoms. They aren't all considered the same continent in lore.Baggins 21:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes yes, I agree. I take back everything I said here. The current text is correct. Consider Paynes was never here. To the original question then ... the page is correct to sya Azeroth as Arathor was to the north and most definately not taken when the Orcs sacked Stormwind thus ending the First War (hopefully this is true)

And I wanted to say Eastern Kingdoms but never considered them to be different continents. Never really thought about the Eastern Kingdom to be split up into continents. --Paynes 22:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem, :).Baggins 22:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Blackhand's ascension

Warcraft I tells that Blackhand rose to power during the war, though Rise of the Horde tells that Blakchand was already the Warchief and the puppet of Gul'dan a handful of years before the Opening of the Dark Portal. What should we keep here?--K ) (talk) 10:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Where did the humans escape?

Where had Lothar led the survivors to Lordearon? I dont see any docks in the maps and my only guess is in current Westfall you see a light house that might've shown docks excisted during the First war. Gorvar (talk) 15:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

They went to Lordaeron. As for how they got there, Stormwind might've had docks back then like it does now. Big, furry, and insane (Have a conversation with the homocidal furry!) (Come and stalk me! ...No, wait, please don't.) 16:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Inconsistencies in the Chronology

"Medivh sends Gul'dan ANOTHER vision" - but there is no earlier reference to a 1st vision.

"Durotan, chieftain of the Frostwolf clan, and his mate Draka seek an audience with Doomhammer and tell him of Gul'dan's betrayal" - what betrayal? Wasn't mentioned before; needs to be explained. Austinlwyman4 (talk) 18:40, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

war end date

Looking at the notes here some of the things don't really make sense. I have copied notes presently say here after "0 ADP - 5 ADP" and then my commentary on them, putting the references first:

1. The official ruling is that Anduin Lothar declared the war to be lost in the Year 4 and began gathering people for the exodus. Fighting continued until the ultimate fall of Stormwind in Year 5. Prior to this ruling, there were multiple contradictory sources that stated how long the First War lasted:
   • I could not find an archive of this Loreology tweet, does anyone have a screenshot or know what it said? Who operated the account and why do we cite it? Where are "year four" and "year five" talked about?

1. 5 years according to the Ultimate Visual Guide timeline, with the fall of Stormwind set to 3-5 years.
   • I assume this is from page 28 to 29ish, haven't found a full copy to look at yet but am curious specifically what it says in the quote.
2. Roughly 5 years.
   • I think one issue here with interpreting "nearly five" as being the completeness of the war is that actually it only refers to the duration of time in which it "tore the realm". Actual conflicts could've lasted longer. The 2nd reference seems to actually describe a separate period of time: the vague "few years" PRIOR to the actual war in which orcs snuck through in small bands raiding and gathering intel while warlocks widened and stabilized the rift.
3. Roughly 10 years, this reference refers to before the first siege upon Stormwind.
   • The skirmish/raids actually seems like it would be describing the "few years" prior to the actual "war". It's during time like this scouts might conceive Garona, for example.
4. Roughly 15 years, this reference may be referring to before the creation of the Dark Portal, thus it is unknown which year the orcs stepped forth into the portal.
   • It actually seems like Medivh might've already opened the portal which caused the 6 years of bad crops prior to Stormwind being attacked and a decade of skirmishes, so you could have 6 years lurking, 10 years skirmishing, 5 years all-out war. Not necessarily a contradiction.
5. Less than a year. The introduction to the Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness campaign states "Six years have passed since the First War between man and orc." Noting this, the official timeline created by Blizzard Entertainment shows that Warcraft: Orcs and Humans takes place in Year 0 and Warcraft II takes place in Year 6, indicating that the First War lasted less than a year.
   • I'm pretty sure "six years have passed" would mean the time between WC1 ending and WC2 starting. I don't think that would necessarily mean that both wars happened in less than 11 months each. It's not clear if the years given in the 2004 and 2007 websites are saying "this is the year the event began" or "this is the year the event ended" or "every single event happened in the span of this one year".

At best I think the website hints via "negative one" listing for Rise of the Horde a short gap.

There was a tiny rift for years before it became a Portal. Orcs entered before it formally became a Portal as Gul'dan and Garona termed it. Tycio (talk) 22:51, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

the reason things don't make sense is that you're trying to reconcile WC1 lore with modern lore. WC1 was released 26 years ago, and the vast majority of its content has been retconned over that time. when retcons happen, we use the newest lore. just because the original lore said that the orcs came through a tiny rift, doesn't mean it's wrong to go with the current lore that medivh opened the dark portal to let the orcs through the first time. i'm fairly certain that's covered in Chronicle 2, which is cited in the article (though i can't grab and quotes for you because i don't have a copy myself).

also, loreology is Sean Copeland, the lead historian for wow. he basically used his twitter to answer lore-related questions. unfortunately, a number of his tweets were not properly archived. Eithris (talk) 23:35, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• additional note while i'm here: please wait for discussions to happen before you go changing pages (specifically talking about the Dark Portal page here). if you notice what appears to be a discrepancy, bring it up and wait. do not bring it up and then edit in your interpretation before anyone's had a chance to respond.

thank you. Eithris (talk) 23:42, 22 February 2021 (UTC)