Talk:Rumored Races/Archive10

Elementals

Should Elementals be placed on this? Garm 14:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

"Humanoid" would be a prerequisite, I think. Although you can never be sure with Blizzard.--K ) (talk) 15:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Elementals are already shaman pets. Zurr T ∙ C 16:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Good one. They would of course be shamans. Maybe primal elementals.--K ) (talk) 16:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If elementals get put on then High Elfs can return...theres a bigger chance for high elfs than elementals.--Gurluas 16:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

No there isn't. High elves are way to similar to blood elves. How you found a connection between elementals and high elves is beyond me too. Zurr T ∙ C 16:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Easy to guess. Gurluas has just turned in a biased comment. Never mind those.--K ) (talk) 16:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright; I placed elementals in there. Everybody LOOK IT OVER! Garm 17:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

LOL Kralnor. All 4 elemental types are with the cult. With the draenei shammys both can have them, but the horde is more likely to get them. Elemental spirits do not serve the old gods. The wind and earth leaders are not too bad. The evil centaur are half earth elmental.--SWM24 48 17:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

How i did? anyone says high elfs wont be playable, the same could be said for elementals, its like saying elwynn cows will be playable, and high elfs are worlds apart the current blood elfs, the ONLY resemblance, is the body size, and structure. --Gurluas 17:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

GG, elementals isn't needed at all... Their are too many varieties, they aren't humanoids, unless you count Flamewakers... They are already used as pets for Shamans and Mages. Plus many basically use the same frame and animations as bog beasts and void walkers...Baggins 18:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Garm's Elementals

General

+ The Hydraxian Waterlords are a great example of elementals that can request the help of mortal races.

+ The elementals can manipulate races into joining them (Ragnaros, for example, is ever-so controlling over the Dark Iron Dwarves, and uses his firey brethren to keep them in line) via persuasion or use of force.

+ Elementals are friendly towards shamans in-game.

? Elementals, while unable to use mounts, could have an ability such as the taurens' Plainsrunning.

- The Wind elementals are in an alliance with the Twilight's Hammer cultists, notorious enemies of both the Alliance and the Horde.

Which ones use the bog beasts?--SWM24 48 18:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Beats me... I'm thinking bog beasts themselves... I told everyone to LOOK IT OVER...Garm 18:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure, but the upper body animation of the bogbeasts seems very similar to the water elemental/fire elemental arm and head movements. As for "new ideas" I'd suggest putting them in the talk page before adding them directly into the article. In order for people to see it better, and be able to make a better decision on it. Once its been voted on essentially, then it can be decided to add it in.Baggins 18:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I looked it over, gave feedback, and changed nothing.--SWM24 48 22:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You are allowed to change it, as long as is ain't erased. If you feel it is inaccurate, LOOK IT OVER again and add facts. Garm 23:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Are elementals even sentenial?-User:Airiph/sig 23:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Sentient. Yes they are.--SWM24 48 00:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Garm; You ignored the intro to the page;

"This page should only be edited after changes are discussed through peer review here. Please discuss ideas on the talk page if you feel there should be changes to the main article, so the page does not become a battle field for clashing ideas."

In, other words you need to get feedback from peers before you add any new sections to article. Something as silly as elementals definitely needs to be discussed in here first to see what people think, not in the article itself.Baggins 17:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

You know what? You're absolutely right. Let's discuss. ^_^ Garm 22:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Arguments for Elementals

+Elementals are sentinent, unique, and original. Blizzard would pick them if they wanted to. The Hydraxian Waterlords are perfect examples of elementals who would want the help of mortals. The Twilight's Hammer cult is only orchestrated by wind and rock elementals in Silithus in terms of elementals. Fire elementals show that the elementals can force themselves into any alliance with any race they want. What could go wrong for them? Garm 14:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Arguments against Elementals

As several quest chains have proven, elementals can be easily manipulated by magical bracers. Some elementals have tried rebelling, like Aquantion but can just get their bracers replaced. IE: Summon Water Elemental, All elementals including voidwalkers have bracers... what I'm saying is that the elementals are an easily manipulated race. Ragnaros only conqured the Dark Irons due to the fact he is not just an elemental: he is an Old God.--Mantriox/Talk/Contributions 20:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no he isn't; he's an Elemental Lord. But all the same, he does have a vast amount of power. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Races for removal

Because there are too many sections about removing races I created this section.

I think races that need to be removed shude be put in a subsection in this section (including the existing sections about removing races).

Do the admins agree. Zakolj 18:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Makrura

First of does anyone disagree with removing Makrura, because they are the least likely of all the races on the page and shude be removed. Zakolj 18:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

... People have an imagination. If they want Makruras in the Alliance, they can state their opinion. Not everything on the list is possible, but we have hopes and imaginations, too. Some days people learn that. Garm 18:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Pilkington has a band and tries to join Illegal Danish... OK it is fan fiction...--SWM24 48 18:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

About High Elfs! i want them back!and we know almost nothing about makrura, i say Keep. But i say remove Lost Ones--Gurluas 18:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

However we do remove the least likely from game play standpoint and relation to official lore. If something requires rewriting official lore or mechanics of a race (i.e. rampant speculation, and hypothetical what-ifs, generally the kind of stuff we strive to leave out of the articles) in order to put them on the page, then its probably even less likely to be playable. In this case we are talking about a pre-technological race, that doesn't even wear clothes, and rarely uses weapons, and are treated more like beasts than humanoids. If people want to create a fanfic on how to add them into the game it probably should be under their "user:/" page.Baggins 18:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

To Garm I even think magnataur and High elves are more likely shude we add them again and others, people have imaginations true, but shude this page be about every race in the warcraft universe, there are fan fiction pages and people shude put links to them in the Notes and other idea pages section. So in short why were the other races removed then. Zakolj 19:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Baggins, my comment was a joke that should have been gotten by you. It is not a WoWWiki fan fic, it is a popular independant one. Nevermind, you ment user race theories.--SWM24 48 20:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

My message was to garm not you, LOL.Baggins 00:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This is blasphemy... THIS IS MADNESS! Garm 00:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

THIS IS SP- Wait, no it isn't.--SWM24 48 00:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I say keep Makrura. They're original, which is what Blizzard would choose them for. Garm 00:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"Not everything on the list is possible, but we have hopes and imaginations, too."

Sorry to burst your bubble Garm, but we'd like to keep everything on the list within the 'possible' boundary. Acknowledged that makrura are unusual and orginal as fantasy races go, but with all the information we have on them it'll be several retcons and an entire racial redesign should they ever become playable. Right now, they're not suitable either physically or lore-wise: so I say they go. For now. --User:Vorbis/Sig

You told me that same saying and I believe it. Now you're just contradicting yourself in your game of Devil's Advocate... Garm 21:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Having enough culture for the possibility of a non-playable faction is another story?--SWM24 48 19:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

They'd be perfect for a non-playable faction ya.Baggins 19:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

So they should be removed, right? Zakolj 13:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I dont get this, Makrura seemed to be a very possible race lorewise.

What changed suddenly? --Gurluas 10:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Half-ogres

They are a half-bread race shude we add half-elves and half-orcs, true they are very popular because of Rexxar, but they just look like big brown-skinned orcs, it's more likely Blizzard will just add brown skins for playable orcs (maybe even in Wrath of the Lich King). Zakolj 19:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Blizz wouldn't pick 'em. I cosign with removing them. They're already a Horde-aligned faction in-game. What more would they want? Garm 00:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Besides, purebreds have far more potential than "half" races. --Morlu 17:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Orcs are already playable, and ogres make for a more physically and culturally unique choice. They're also Outland-based, few in number and... well, I don't think I need to add any more. Half-ogres won't happen. I'd bet on it. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Lost Ones

Since we took out broken, shouldn't we take out lost ones? Broken where more likly anyway.-User:Airiph/sig 17:51, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes.--SWM24 48 17:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Lost ones were the original draenei before all the retcons (I hate to say it, but Zarnks was right about something). Blizzard divided all the draenei by how sane/Light-worshipping they were. Garm 18:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Lost ones are the least sane.--SWM24 48 18:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought the retcons were silly too, but c'est la vie...--Baggins 18:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

What in the world does that mean? Garm 18:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Even if the Lost Ones are a different enough race from the original draenei, they are insane, hostile, and barely even willing to communicate with any other race than their own. Besides, their mental state barely even makes them a sentinent race, only capable of the most primitive magics and hunting for food. I must also note that their reckless behavior has made even the uncorrupted draenei to look at them with pity. I should also add that they kill any orcs on sight, unless they have a very good reason not to. --Kulsprutejojjo 20:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Kulsprutejojjo, and that they shude be removed. Zakolj 20:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

So I`m gona delete it,if I shouldnt have done that just revert it-User:Airiph/sig 23:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no problem.Baggins 00:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Harpys

A flying race, it shude be removed. Zakolj 20:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Definitely, unless Blizzard screws up the lore completely by making a plucked harpy community, which is just so idiotic that I would quit WoW. Period. I could accept that they changed draenei appearance drastically, since the past were mutated ones, but changing a race's appearance and functions completely, and still calling it the same race, would be a real dissapointment. And there is no chance harpies can be playable in their current state. Natural flying ability just won't work for many reasons. In my opinion, of the technical difficulities races, harpies is the least probable race to become palyable. Even lore additions and changes can remedy that! --Kulsprutejojjo 20:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

A hovering race?--SWM24 48 20:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

With Harpies, there are no males... original harpy lore compounds this fact. Garm 00:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, lore wise, according to Monster Guide hints that there may be males, they just haven't been encountered and recorded by researchers.Baggins 01:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Uh... I'm not sure with harpies. You may say that they're a flying race, but they seem to put one hell of a lot of effort in keeping themselves just hovering at only a few metres above the ground. Flying at any height or for long distances seems unlikely to me. Then again, they don't have much to hold weapons with, can't make anything larger than a nest and have a culture that leaves much to be desired. Nevertheless, they are a race that we know little about and it won't take much to completely change their angle to be more compatible. Something keeps me from saying yes or no. I don't know... keep them or remove them, I won't worry about it. --User:Vorbis/Sig

I think there would be something creepy about harpies if they landed started walking, and pulling out huge weapons to attack you.Baggins 19:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

True... that's what makes gargoyles so creepy in fantasy. That and their faces. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Mo'arg

Who thinks this was a good idea, I think they shude be removed. Zakolj 20:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Reasons? It's "should" btw, it's going to annoy me otherwise. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 20:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It could be draeneiesque lore. You shude spell correctly.--SWM24 48 20:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Demons most likely would not fit into the Alliance or Horde, but if Blizzard were to introduce more factions, they may be a possibility. --Morlu 17:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think what was there was good. It fit.--SWM24 48 17:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Mo'arg have much to be fleshed out (hell, they only recieved their race name with the last expansion) and we've seen that servants of the Burning Legion don't always remain faithful time and time again. There may be a possibility of them joining a faction (the Horde, probably) should they leave the Burning Legion or the Illidari: think of them as possible orc- or Forsaken-a-likes. They're feasible with absolutely no lore bending. There's some possibility there, if only a little. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Plus its been stated that the demon races (most if not all) were originally mortal races corrupted by the Burning Legion's fel power, as far back as Manual of Monsters.Baggins 19:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for suggesting them. Zakolj 13:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Dragonspawn and draconid

Playable dragons,to be honest I dont see that happening.Any other ideas about that?-User:Airiph/sig 02:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

OBJECTION!

Garm: I think drakonids would be a splendid idea. It would just be a yellow dragonflight that mirrors/parodies the Simpsons lore-wise and gameplaywise.

I think smaller Drakonids are more likely than dragonspawns, i vote delete Drakonid,(and readd high elfs.)

Why do you insist on readding high elves? Garm 10:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Because high elves have a great potential, and im sure blizzard could find a way to make them different from blood elves, plus with so many unlikely races, high elves could be added too, no?--Gurluas 11:20, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

You want to add high elves, make a new section for it on this page. You won't find much support though. User:Kirkburn/Sig3

Sweeeeet :) il make it look good --Gurluas 16:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Dragonspawn seem unlikely to me with the existance of the very similar, but more humanoid drakonids (less problems!). Nevertheless, this does not cancel them out. If centaur and cenarians are possible, so too are dragonspawn. --User:Vorbis/Sig

I still say its very very unlikely Dragonspawns become playable, Drakonids are much more likely.

High elves

OK since there are high Elf fans here, I`m gonna ask for reasons why there are unlikly, and I`ll answer them! (try not to say anything rude because my lil` cousin is learning to read this and I can`t control it) Also give an expansion they can probuly fit in.-User:Airiph/sig 16:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

LRN 2 SPL. There are not that many high elves left for one.--SWM24 48 17:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

My guess is personally the great sea expansion, as their new homeland could be an island, also supported by the large ammount of sea faring high elves, like Captain Thalo'thas Brightsun. Most people thinks they are unlikely because most are dead, or have become blood elves, plus their language is in the hands of blood elves(originally the blood elves should have a language named Sin'darin, maybe back then they planned to have High elves), yet still the race is very interesting lorewise, and gameplay wise, and especially roleplay wise.--Gurluas 17:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I see this all the time in the WoW forums,There are more High Elves than Darkspear Trolls and Gnomes!Also Ive bean thinking the exact same,On my map I put High Elves in Gilneas.(for a reason!)-User:Airiph/sig 17:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Also don`t you spell it learn to spell? =P User:Airiph/sig 17:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

You can say there are more high elves, but they are also much more spread, take a look at them, a few are in stormwind, a few in theramore, a few in outland etc, If theese high elves can somehow unite, then there are many many more high elves than gnomes and dark spear trolls.--Gurluas 17:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Doesn`t mean they can`t reunite now does it?Any other reasons to throw at me other than population?-User:Airiph/sig 17:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

They can reunite, if the allerian high elfs, come home and rejoin the stormwind and theramore high elfs then you have enough. i am for one supporting high elves as playable race, especially because id love to disguise myself as a blood elf forexample. Another common reason people throws is that they are too similar to blood elves, and that we got to many elven races.--Gurluas 17:34, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Them looking too much like Blood Elves would be alot of fun in battle grounds,and language would either have their language and have the ability to communicate with Blood Elves,or they can have the Elven language.Also "too many Elven races" People, there are only two!Possibly three!Anything else?-User:Airiph/sig 17:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

At this point they will never give one race the ability to communicate with opposing faction. When the game was first being designed they were going to let everyone communicate with each other, then they limited it only to the Forsaken and Humans. What they discovered was either it lead to people insulting each other with harsh language, or helping each other out. They wanted antagonism to go on between the factions but didn't want it to break down into language battles. They wanted to avoid races becoming friendly and helping each other.Baggins 17:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

So they can use the elven language!-User:Airiph/sig 17:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC) P.s.anything else

Or invent a language, sort of like how the blood elves were planned to invent Sindarin--Gurluas 18:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Kael was only a blood elf in "style" back then, he was still a high elf and so were his followers, he transformed to a "real" blood elf once he began siphoning demonic magic.--Gurluas 18:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah...I have class ideas here:Buccaneer,Classes Ranger, Hunter, Mage, Priest,and Paladin!-User:Airiph/sig 18:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I have a more accurate one here: Warrior,Hunter,Mage,Priest,Druid(possible redemption with nature,the rangers of quel'thalas were druids. And i doubt high elves would become paladins...blood elves only turned paladins because they stole the light from the naaru, while existing, high elf paladins were extremely rare, and certainly not to a playable degree)--Gurluas 18:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"Or invent a language, sort of like how the blood elves were planned to invent Sindarin"

Inventing a new language for a race that has spoken Thalassian for millenia is not very likely. It would have made more sense for blood elves to make a new language in order to distance themselves from their high elven "cousins" and prevent cross-communication between the two races. I suppose though they could decide to consider them seperate "thalassian dialects" and let both have Thalassian but not be able to communicate with each other due to the differences between dialects.

As for Kael, he was still a blood elf. He states himself and I roughly paraphrase that they are blood elves, and no longer hold any beef with night elves. Plus he only encountered a small portion of the night elves. Plus if you go to lore pretty much the moment they joined Naga and Illidan the Alliance as a whole turned on them. See Alliance & Horde Compendium. Its stated that high elves are not allowed in northern Kalimdor in night elven lands, throughout the entire RPG.Baggins 18:12, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh?-User:Airiph/sig 18:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I still think High Elves would create a new dialect/language rather than use Thalassian, since the high elves want to distance them from the Blood Elves(and gameplay reasons)--Gurluas 18:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

But not quite as diffrent as orcish and common because it`s a DIALECT not a diffrent language,-User:Airiph/sig 18:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

They want to distance themselves from blood elves but that doesn't mean distance themselves from their heritage, they want to remain true to what it means to be high elves, and Thalassian is one of those deep seeded parts of their heritage. Its one of the things that other races respect about the race, and is one of the three main original Arathor languages, so has very deep rooted cultural heritage to the Alliance as a whole. The three languages of Common, Dwarven and Thalassian was used to the name "Lordaeron".Baggins 18:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Airiph it depends ont he source, but Darnassian and Thalassian are described as being "two different languages" in most sources. Only a few sources describe them as "dialects" so Blizzard is kinda wishy washy on the issue. And Darnassian and Thalassian can't be understood between cultures, its changed that much.Baggins 18:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Ahh I understand now.-User:Airiph/sig 18:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)(wow in one day this grew pretty big)

For goodness sake, you simply refuse to listen to me Airiph. We keep going over the same old ground: we've had this discussion over a multitude of different pages, and you've consistently failed to come up with anything that would justify the high elves' existence as a playable race, though you refuse to acknowlege reasonable argument. Your arguments amaze me - and you repeat them time and time again, immovable as a rock, as though the many reasons arrayed against them do not exist. Would you like me to list my points again for you, or will you just dismiss them?

I'm sorry to take such an offensive attitude, but knowing students much in the same vein as you it consistently irritates me when they fail to listen to, process and take in information. I - we, rather - have given you more than enough to work with on "why they are unlikely" and I'd like you to thoroughly look over that information before you reply to this message. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Unlikely does not mean impossible. This was actually arrayed by the draenei, nobody thought eredars would be playable, and yet blizzard made new lore to fit them in properly.--Gurluas 04:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine, here's some reasons.

1. They're identical to blood elves. Not similar, IDENTICAL. They are the exact same race. Blood elves are merely a distinct faction of high elves, much like the Defias are a faction of humans and the Darkspear Tribe is a faction of jungle trolls. Adding high elves as a playable race would be like adding the Defias Brotherhood to the Horde, or the Gurubashi Tribe to the Alliance.

2. The numbers that have been endlessly quoted regarding the number of high elves were accurate around the time of Warcraft 3/Frozen Throne. Since then, a majority of them have gone over to the blood elves. The number of true high elves - those who refuse to use demonic magics to sate their addiction and live with the pain of arcane withdrawal - is quite small, and rapidly dwindling as more and more decide that Kael'thas had the right idea.

3. Blizzard reps have on multiple occasions come right out and said in no uncertain terms that they will not be a playable race.

Face it - The only form of playable high elves we'll ever get is in the form they're in now. -- Dark T Zeratul 05:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

1. Wrong they are not identical, Blood elves have changed alot from the old noble High Elves...they are no longer the same race...not only culturally but also biologically.

2. Many high elves were discovered in outland, still a great group cling to the old ideas, and now that the outland is rediscovered, high elves are pilgriming to allerian stronghold or to stormwind to make a stand, in time, they could become powerful enough to found a new land, also many of them utterly hate Kael'thas and his blood elf ideas, they would never join him.

3. Blizzard changed their mind on many occasions... who would have thought Archimonde became playable?

You cannot foresee what blizzard does... face it, the chance is there, and its much larger than "Centaur" forexample.--Gurluas 05:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

1. "High elves and blood elves are physiologically the same race..." From the Encyclopedia on the WoW site (High Elves and Blood Elves).

2. "Prince Kael'thas returned home and rallied all the survivors he could find: approximately 90% of the surviving high elves." "Even today, though, a high elf might still succumb to that addiction and become one of the blood elves." Also from the Encyclopedia (High Elves).

3. Archimonde is NOT playable, and neither are eredar. Draenei and eredar were once the same race, true, but this has not been the case for a very long time. The eredar are the result of Sargeras's corruption of their race, and unlike blood elves and high elves, eredar ARE biologically different from draenei. In fact, I find great amusement in the fact that while you are continually trying to say that high elves and blood elves are racially different despite Blizzard saying they're not, you're also saying that draenei and eredar are racially the same, despite Blizzard, again, saying they're not. -- Dark T Zeratul 05:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

1. This has clearly changed now, and you can see more and more how different blood elves are becommming.

2. That is a very rare occasion, because all the remaining high elves have become a community devoted to fight their addiction, they would never side with kael, with the exception of weakminded individuals.

3. They are just as racially different, as blood elves are from high elves, the eredars are corrupt, the blood elves are corrupt, but on a smaller scale since the blood elf corruption just started. Also before the whole eredar thing, Draenei were the ones now known as lost ones, blizzard invented all the new lore to make you play as what other people sees as "eredars"--Gurluas 05:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I'm kinda supportive of Blizzard introducing High Elves into WoW... but I doubt it'll happen. It's cause High Elves is to Blood Elves are similar to Draenei is to Broken. Even though there are differences, the similarities are too much to introduce them as a new race. Sides, players will start criticising Blizzard for having lack of creativity this way and I really don't want that to happen. On the other hand, I do wanna see some High Elf involvement in the lore and especially their conclusion... Hopefully in a future novel.--Brashxon 08:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to play as them main because they are my favorite race, and could give roleplaying a real kick, with two very similar races, yet worlds apart in lore, and you would have to be careful about who you target, now if an alliance spots a blood elf, they kill him/her despite them wearing blue or anything...this would never happend if high elves were introduced... at least not immediately and on non pvp realms. Plus blizzard could give high elfs, new hairstyles, new skins, and maybe a new set of special high elf clothes, making them very different from blood elves.--Gurluas 08:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, first thing they'd have to do in order to head more to the direction of making them playable is giving high elves their own models. I'd suggest something retro, going closer to the art design from warcraft II and reign of chaos. Something along the lines of updating the old high elf graphics in WoW to higher poly count, and improved animation. They'd also need to have their own unique animaton and voice overs, something different than blood elves to differentiate them further. Now if Blizzard was to do this in-game it still wouldn't be a sure reason for making them playable. But it would allow them to be more "different".Baggins 08:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

i still think they should be based on the current model, with less threathening faces, and no spiky hair for males, and beards for males etc. there are many possibilities.

Also high elves npcs have a unique soundset, they have the same quotes as night elves but different voices.--Gurluas 09:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

About the recent edit, he asks the horde for help against Theramore, and Theramore is an alliance bastion.--Gurluas 09:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

He only wants help against Theramore, and no one else. If you go up to him with an alliance character he's just a neutral steamwheedle character. He becomes friendly, honored, revered, etc with Alliance characters as you earn steamwheedle rep. He's what Blizzard calls an Independent, or non-alligned.Baggins 09:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

He still asks for Horde help to attack an alliance city, he could be persuaded to join the horde in the long run.--Gurluas 09:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

First off we go with current mechanics and lore, "not what-ifs". He's neutral, independent member of the steamwheedle cartel, so despite the fact he gives a horde quest is irrelevent. Blizzard isn't likely to rip him off the steamwheedles there since Horde need to get steamwheedle rep as much as alliance do. Plus he's such a minor character blizzard probalby wouldn't do anything with him. Plus since the majority of the race is already members of the Alliance. One independent isn't going to influence much at all.Baggins 09:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"Also high elves npcs have a unique soundset, they have the same quotes as night elves but different voices."

Nah their are night elves that use the same voices.Baggins 09:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh... really? i have never seen them... all night elves seems to have a different voice than high elves...--Gurluas 09:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, different night elves have different voice files, so it depends on the character. Some use the same sounds as the high elves, others don't. You just have to find the right ones.Baggins 09:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, making new voices for them is easy.--Gurluas 09:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

They don't even need to make new voices for them, they could have utilized WCII and III voice files. There is more than enough content from both games. Infact they should have used hero voice files from the previous games for certain hero characters that don't currently have unique voices in-game.Baggins 09:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Wc3 had no real high elf voices, only Sylvanas, the Sorceress and the Priest, i think Wc2 is better.--Gurluas 09:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There were high elf voices for the "priests", and "sorceress" in Warcraft III. some of it could be utilized. To be fair Warcraft II only had voices for the archers/rangers, and Alleria. Very few high elf voice content, Warcraft III had more high elf voice content than WC2 :p...Baggins 09:32, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Then i think its best to create new ones, beside they only recycled few npc voices from wc3, forexample the blood elves all got new voices.--Gurluas 09:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the high elves section, as there appears to have been no consensus here, and the entire section was badly written. In addition, it would be just lovely if some of you actually read the introduction to the article. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 13:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

What? why? :( and what are you talking about? we came to the conclusion it could be there, and we were talking details. --Gurluas 14:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This link - Future_race_ideas#Qualification_factors - read it. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 14:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I still think high elves can be made different enough to be playable, and thats what we were discussing, like beards for males, and waist long hair for females...--Gurluas 14:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you mistake discussing high elves in WoW in general for actual agreement with them being added as a playable race. Did you just ignore the people disagreeing with you? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 14:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? both me and the other guy misproved many of the so called anti-high elf people. --Gurluas 14:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

So-called "anti-high elf people"? Well, I'm glad we're speaking rationally here ... You didn't "disprove" them, you disagreed with them. There's a difference. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 14:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I did sort of disprove their theories by comming with counter-theories, like the whole too similar thing, or the population, i worked so hard on that :( --Gurluas 14:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

You don't win an argument just by creating a counter-argument. I think you should have a look at the message I posted up there too, Gurluas. --User:Vorbis/Sig

What message? at least i did my best...sigh--Gurluas 14:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This user roleplays as a high elf.

See, that's part of the problem - you are rather attached to high elves, instead of looking at it from a detached PoV. High elves have a tiny population and are almost identical to blood elves. How, exactly, can Blizzard make a viable race from that, given what is said in the introduction paragraph I linked? I do not deny that it would be an interesting prospect, but it is an incredibly unlikely one. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 14:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The tiny population aint so tiny , at least not now that the outland farstriders have been rediscovered, also in northrend Dalaran will also have some high elves, as for the resemblance to blood elves, it will only advance roleplay, and they are not identical. And as i said earlier: Unlikely does not mean impossible.--Gurluas 14:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

What Outland Farstriders? I can only count one, Taela Everstride. The population Dalaran doesn't help, as it will obviously be "used up" by the coming expansion. Can you explain to me how you could tell blood elves and high elves are different from 10 paces if they were wearing similar clothes? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 15:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Blood elves have a much darker skin tone, and glowing green eyes, and in come cases black hair though high elves with black hair aint unheard off. High elves have a paler skin, often blue eyes, and a blond hair, they also look friendlier. And the whole allerian stronghold consist of many npcs named "High Elf Ranger" thoose are all farstriders, and what do you mean with Dalaran used up? it has always been a place where many high elves resided and resides.--Gurluas 15:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)--Gurluas 15:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Blood elves have a paler skin tone, and he means if there are high elves in Dalaran they will be in Dalaran and that there is no other knowen or likely unknowen population. Zakolj 15:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Blood elves aint having a paler, they have a darker almost red skin in comparison to the beautiful high elves. some have a ligther skin tone though...--Gurluas 15:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)--Gurluas 15:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In the Blood elf article see Physical appearance section here is a quote However, her hair and skin are much paler than that of a high elf Zakolj 15:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Must be a mistake, i can illustrate--Gurluas 15:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Or that it shows us that blood elves have a range of skin tones. So, in order to tell any blood elves apart from high elves, you'd have to see the colour of their eyes (and even that isn't reliable) and whether they're smiling at you ...

The Allerian Stronghold isn't that large, and is not all high elves. If Dalaran is moving to Northrend, and the inhabitants left aren't playable in this expansion, how could they become playable in another? Some random mass exodus despite them fighting a war in Northrend? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 15:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I think at the end three playable elven races aren't going to happen, I mean Wildhammer dwarves and Forest trolls are more likely, and pale skin tone and population talk should be in the Talk:High elf page. Zakolj 16:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I still say a playable high elf race can come, and the chance lorewise and roleplaywise is greater than forest troll or wildhammer dwarf.--Gurluas 16:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

All lore is sayins is that the palest of the blood elves are even paler than even the high elves, and other blood elves have turned ruddier than high elves. Essentially the early reliance and feeding on fel and other sources of arcane magic has affected individual blood elves in different ways. Even some blood elves have the same skin tone as high elves in game. The skin color range is actually probably one of the most difficult ways to tell their differences in-game, because for some individuals its negligible. Its alot easier to tell by voice and eyes usually.--Baggins 17:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Tuskarr, old and incorrect information

Listed as a negative in the tuskarr section: "Unlikely to appear even as a non-playable race in any expansion after Wrath of the Lich King."

If you've read up on WotLK you know that tuskarr will appear as a non-playable race. And have their own questhub, possibly faction. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ohls (talk · contr).

"...after Wrath of the Lich King". I think the line is suppose to mean that the Tuskarr have no relevance to future expansions after this upcoming one. -- Raze 05:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Unless we learn about the barren continent of Southartica, :p.Baggins 05:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Which is rather improbable, because e already have Kezan and maybe Pandaria around there. Not to mention the climate is warmer to the south than the north, at least from what I've heard. I believe however that the tuskarr may appear in expansions set after WotLK, but not in a very large numbers. Indeed, the Broken had a time to shine in TBC, but that doesn't mean you only will find them in TBC related stuff. But for either of them being playable is, in my opinion, almost minimal, seeing that neither broken or tuskarr has gotten playable in their relative expansions. --Kulsprutejojjo 07:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Kezan isn't in that far into the southern part of the world, its almost directly west of southern Kalimdor. Pandaria is still a large unknown, but there is no indication of it being in the southern seas. Nothing has really shown us what lies below Kezan, or the other side of the world. Not even the globes laying around the world are that useful. Still I doubt they'll establish anything major in those regions. While you can't tell in game in published information, and shown in earlier warcraft games there is information about lands having natural weather patterns, going through the four seasons. Baggins 03:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, of course the seasons don't change in WoW, and many zones have their reasons, but that is mostly because of the climate of the zones. Indeed, hyou never see snow in Tanaris, for example, while Dun Morogh has lots of snow. I believe the Northrend climate is that of Northern Europe or Canada and Alaska. Many pines, rather cold environment, snow common during the winters. But the seasons don't change in WoW of a simple reason; it would take a lot of time to Blizzard. However, we do have proof that the seasons DO change in the Warcraft world. It makes clear in the Warcraft 3 human and undead campaigns, where Arthas begins his journey in spring or summer, but returns during autumn, invades Quel'Thalas, returns again, and Lordaeron is in winter. That means Lordaeron went thrugh three seasons during the whole 2 first original WC3 campaigns. But enough of that. As I said, we still haven't heard of any "Southtarctica" or "Southrend" or whatever you called it, so we still can only speculate about the possibilty of such a continent. And as for The Great Sea, it does not just contain Kezan and Pandaria, and I seriously believe they will be in a Great Sea expansion rather than their own expansion. Indeed, Kezan lies in the Great Sea already, and I do believe Pandaria does too. --Kulsprutejojjo 06:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

File:TinyIslands.JPG

The other side of Azeroth.

This is the extent of the South Seas as far as we've been shown, according to Lands of Mystery, South Seas section. It includes the Maelstrom, Kezan, Zandalar, Plunder Isle, Tel Abim, and the Broken Isles. Another map showed us two additional islands formerly known as Island of Doctor Lapidis and Gillijim's Isle. As for the location of the Pandaren, we can only speculate, its direction has never been hinted at. Although, we have been given hints to where Pandaren's used to live (northwest Kalimdor, IIRC), and where they set up a colony, in western Kalimdor. Since they set up a colony in the west, it might suggest to Pandaria being in the west or northwest, somewhere, for them to making landing there.

Now strangly, if you look at the globes in game you can see a handful of islands to west of Kalimdor and east of Eastern Kingdoms in the ocean that lies between those areas(Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms are shown to exist on the same hemisphere of the world). Surprisingly one of these islands is shown to be on the "south pole", and looks to be fairly large. Though obviously not Northrend in size (see left side picture).Baggins 07:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, that is interesting... Never noticed that until now... Anyhow, we don't know anything more about these lands than that they already are there. But the possibility that one of these islands is Pandaria is just as high as it would be in the Great Sea. After all, we don't know it's location at all. We just know it exixts, and that it's the pandaren homeland. --Kulsprutejojjo 11:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Why are you all arguing over where the Tuskarr would start... obviously they cant start at level 1 on Northrend but Blizzard can always just add a small island nearby, thats what they did with the Draenei... --Kooper127

Oho sick idea... Mammoth mounts... like hairy versions of elephants.. with the 4 ellek tusks... or maybe they could have walrus like tusks... like half mammoth half walrus mounts... dono wut the epic versions would be but... tuskarr own... walrus people with penguin pets... mammoth-walrus mounts would just complete them... Kooper127 23:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Shovelhorns are my bet for a mount of some kind (yes, a red link, I know - I came across them in the Howling Fjord however). A bit like elekks, but with a giant shovel-shaped horn at the front. Kirkburn talk contr 23:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Ogres, Again

Do not lie to readers by saying the Stonemaul joined out of their own free will. That is complete bullshit. Rexxar killed the previous leader, making him leader by default, thus forcing the Stonemaul into the Horde. The Stonemaul never wanted to join, but they naively listen to their new leader, as they assume he was stronger than their previous. Also, a point involving similarities with at least three races of the Alliance should be bright green. There is significant evidence throughout the series proving the ogres' enmity towards orcs, as well as draenei's, night elves' and humans' enmity towards orcs. Garm 21:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow, accusing people of "lying" is pretty strong, and I don't think such an assertion is really supported by the article Stonemaul. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 22:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

People who have played the Orc campaign in the Frozen Throne know the Stonemaul were practically forced to join the Horde by Rexxar, as they were against it until Rexxar killed their previous leader. It is a blatant lie to say the Stonemaul joined out of free will, as the campaign says otherwise. Garm 22:53, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Comparing one race to two or more other races is not compelling enough evidence to support the bright green for any article, unless Blizzard does themselves to make some specific point. For fans to do it they could take the time to take any race including ones already playable and making compelling arguements as to why those races should join either side. I.e. someone could argue for why the tauren or orcs should be allies of the Alliance as opposed to the Horde. But in the end its just fan speculation and arguementation, which does not have any basis in facts, but opinions. We try not to let it pass in other sections of the article it shouldn't be allowed in ogre section either for consistency. If it has sneaked by in other sections they should be demoted to appropriate speculation markings.Baggins 23:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Additionally disgust of one "faction" doesn't automatically make them potential members of the other. As established in WoW and the RPG, it can lead to them being only partially aligned to one or the other, neutral to both, or independent of both, and/or enemies of both. So its not exactly compelling nor is it evidence of being bright green +, and arguebly even a dark green +.23:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

As for the stonemaul clan there is more behind the story than was told in The Frozen Throne;

In fact their previous leader the one Rexxar killed was a tyrannical leader and found the ancient orcish axe Serathil and used it to control the clan. Rexxar sensed the corruption in Kor'gall and slew him freeing the rest of the clan from his tyrannical ways, they respected him for his help freeing them from such a bad leader. After Rexxar left, Mok'Morokk took over and broke many of the tribes tenets, angering the clan, and then attempted to subvert the tribes lawful ways. Mok'Morokk ruled unquestioned until an unknown challenger drove him out. Draz'Zilb now runs the clan from the shadows, and the clan seeks a new leader, and they have renewed their ties to the Horde of their own free will. It is believed that the aging ogre Tharg is the most likely candidate to become the next leader.^[1]

It sounds like you were trying to make Rexxar out to sound like an evil sinister force who was trying to tyranically take over the stonemaul, when infact he actually freed them, and allowed them to return to their old ways.

Also, its been stated in HPG, and elsewhere, that according to Stonemaul tradition leaders are chosen either through an old chieftain's wish, or by a trial of rights, in that a challenger, usually a member, or someone who had earned membership in the tribe, has the right to challenge a chief, often to the death, to become the new ruler, so Rexxar was following the clans traditions when he killed the much disliked Kor'gall, thus earning their respect.

Most ogres are savage and evil, as unruly as any forest troll. However, the Stonemaul clan defies this mold, and exists in a lawful and semi-democratic society. They perform trials to decide anything from a new leader to going to war, and have willingly joined the Horde. The hero Rexxar is technically the leader of the Stonemaul ogres, but after his disappearance, the ogre Mok’Morokk led the clan. Mok’Morokk was a despot who lost their village to Onyxia and her brood. Mok’Morokk was quickly driven out or killed; no one knows his fate. The clan currently has no leader.^[2]

You, know you really should be carefuly about calling people liars, especially when Blizzard states it themselves.Baggins 22:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, playing the mission again... Rexxar is being rough, really, to the Ogres. Maybe it's been retconned, but on the spot he appears like any other tyrannical chieftain, except for the fact that we know he does it for the good of both the Stonemaul Clan and the Horde.--K ) (talk) 14:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it is retconned. Rexxar isn't necessarily tyrannical, but he's rough to the Ogres of the Stonemaul clan, probably for their own good. Garm 14:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

How else could one rule over an ogre tribe? --User:Vorbis/Sig

Races for adding

Let's add on races that could be playable. Not everything on that list is possible, but we can be certain that the list allows for good imaginations.

Hopefully the admins might approve some of these. ^.^ Garm 19:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pit Lords

Every other demonic race is on there... why not pit lords? Garm 19:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Massive, way too powerful. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

You ever hear the term "Size doesn't matter"? Garm 19:39, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

It does in WoW. How do you fit them through doorways? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Nathrezim are tall, Drakonids are tall, Tauren are tall, Ogres are all, and Magnataurs are tall. What are you trying to imply? Also, Varimathras is excessively taller than any tauren, yet he could fit through if he wanted to. Garm 19:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Garm, do you know how big a pit lord is? --Piu ^(?!) 19:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Very. I've played WarCraft 3. Garm 19:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Just enlarging your character through some of the stuff like furbolg rage potions can make certain player character races have difficulty entering certain doorways in game, already. Its an in-game physics thing.Baggins 19:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Varimathras is excessively taller than any tauren, and he could "fit" through doorways. What are you trying to imply? Garm 19:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Look I have no idea why blizzard gives player characters different game mechanics than NPCs. But in-game if a player somehow gets larger than a passage or doorway they can't go through it. NPC characters like bosses on the contrary often have odd ability of chasing someone throughout a level, despite being taller than all the doorways. Graphically they kind of just walk through the walls.Baggins 19:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Ogres are not all massive, tauren is a stupid comparison, and drakonids are not all tall. Pit lords however are all severly huge. Anyway, what say you about their incredible power? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 19:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Pit lords would permit an "OVER 9000" references. That, and Pit Lords in WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne weren't excessively powerful. Speaking of which, aren't they normally neutral heroes that both Alliance and Horde could get? Garm 19:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Testing... testing... Garm 16:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Kirkburn,shall I delete it,there bigger than giants?-User:Airiph/sig 17:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Also look at this picture

Annihilan are considerably larger than humans

-User:Airiph/sig 17:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The only issue is size. Lorewise they are absolutely possible. Mannoroth is dead, so ties to the Burning Legion can be cut off instantaneously. Garm 17:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They exist only to destroy. Read the WCII lore, AND THEIR NAME!--SWM24 48 17:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The annihilians' history is unexplained. Garm 17:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Garm, I see where you are coming from, but when you first enter Outland what do you see? At their hold in SMV? They still serve.--SWM24 48 17:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... strange... Garm 17:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Then should we put Giants and Titans in?!?-User:Airiph/sig 17:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

In a stark contrast of Giants and Titans, most of annihilan history is unknown. Why they joined the Burning Legion in the first place, even. Garm 17:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They said Giants are to big!-User:Airiph/sig 17:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

... Look beyond the physical things. Garm 17:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No, because that isn't within the remit of the page. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 17:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You guys say "Lore > Everything". This theory indeed makes sense for this article, does it not? Garm 17:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

WITHIN REASON! Minor problems like four arms and one leg, or wings, or four legs. That sounds very mocking Garm. Giants are too big.--SWM24 48 17:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

What does "lore > everything" (which we don't say) got to do with this? They're massive, in lore, in game.User:Kirkburn/Sig3 17:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Orcs wouldnt accept them because they forced them into war with the Alliance,the Aliance wouldnt accept them because they ruined most of the NE`s land.-User:Airiph/sig 17:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Orcs only know one annihilan, not the entire race. And with night elves, nazrethim and other demonic races joined in, not just the annihilan. Garm 17:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

So orcs do not help fight the pit commander on the stairs? --SWM24 48 17:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Calrify, please. Garm 17:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Orc NPCs help kill the Pit Commander. Elsewhere, Makazradon and Morgroron have a qust for both sides to kill them.--SWM24 48 17:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Look at the Pit Lords hands...bigger than the Great Khali`s hands!Sorry I had to point that out heh heh-User:Airiph/sig 18:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Garm, though you say "size doesn't matter"; try to imagine a 7 foot Pit Lord with tiny wings. It just doesn't work. The size, as with giants and other enormous creatures, is what defines the race (check out the armor in Ogrimmar - so large Thrall had to mount it on a giant sequoia). At present, 30 foot six-limbed flaming dragon-bodied giants with faces beaten with the ugly stick then stuffed to the brim with teeth... seem a particularly unlikely and problem riddled a race. --User:Vorbis/Sig

You make fun of them for being ugly. And yet Horde races are beaten with the ugly stick consecutively! (except for blood elves and Forsaken) {laughs at the entire sentence} Check the lore. For annihilan, there doesn't seem to be much, and as such can present creativity for Blizzard. Who doesn't want to play a 30 foot six-limbed flaming dragon-bodied giant with faces beaten with the ugly stick then stuffed to the brim with teeth? Cairne Bloodhoof is taller than two taurens lined up vertically. YET, he can fit through a doorway. Am I not surprised? Garm 19:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, beaten (which is why blood elves waltzed onto the scene); but not mashed to a pulp. Nevetheless, ugliness is not the point. It's the size.

Garm, their existence is entirely built upon the need for something gargantuan in the Burning Legion (which is why every second sentence in the Annihilan article has a word emphasising their size). You're right: who doesn't want to play a 30 foot monstrosity? Then again, if a 30 foot monstrosity has a large turning circle and cannot fit into a large barn - let alone a house - it is certainly going to have problems in WoW. Cairne is a city boss who does not move from his post but to attack enemy players (thankfully able to move through his XXL-size tauren doorway...). Annihilan would constantly be stuck with their head through the ceiling (especially in instances) and would block the view of...

absolutely everthing.

Do you get what I'm saying? Annihilan are either going to have to be relatively tiny and unimpressive or tank-assed and unable to move. Neither of which is going to happen. --User:Vorbis/Sig

I've used the Rumored Races Test to see annihilans being possibile. AND... it somewhat passed. I have yet for people to look it over. The ones in Nagrand ain't so tall. Garm 20:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll remove that last bit...

Look on the test page, I've responded. I'm not sure you can say that you've passed a test when you don't keep to the questions. --User:Vorbis/Sig

The test is not policy, and just passing the test, or forcing the test to allow something to pass does not get it into this page. Additions to this page are only reached when a clear consensus is made. Thus new race idea should be posted in this posted in here and only in here until the consensus agrees then a wowwiki staff member can add it into the article.Baggins 21:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Umm... I think I did it. Sorry. I forgot why.--SWM24 48 21:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Owlkins

They're respected by night elves and Cenarion Circle, so why aren't they on there? Garm 19:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

The fact they can't speak, don't wear clothes, and relatively beastial in comparison to most humanoids, infact they are just magical beasts according to the RPG. If owlkin went in the article then people would start wanting to add "playable raptors", "gryphons", "wyverns", and other semi-sapient races.Baggins 19:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Also they are already playable as druids...we do not need them as race.--Gurluas 10:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They cant talk either-User:Airiph/sig 17:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yet they can understand Darnassian. Garm 19:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Felhounds understand Eredun but that doesn't make them candates as a playable race. For beasts the knowledge is very limited, at a base sentient level, essentially a master being able to give orders to his pet. We might as well add apes to the playable list :p, since its known that apes can learn languages, and even learn to use sign language.Baggins 19:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Qiraji

They have their own culture, architecture, and language. That, and they're humanoid. They could just neutral, like goblins and ethereals. Garm 20:03, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There isn't a consistent singular Qiraji race, they come in too many different bug varieties. Plus the pesky problem that they all have extreme hatred for the Alliance and Horde races.Baggins 20:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

That's where the word "retcon" would be placed, wouldn't it? Garm 20:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Retcons for the sake of retcons is a poor excuse to make a playable race, and not a reason to add something to the future race ideas page.Baggins 20:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Not for the sake of retcons. Might involve Northrend or Great seas. I'm gonna talk in fragments like Sandwichman. Garm 20:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

We can only use information that has a reasonable basis in known info. You're essentially saying that we could add the Scourge "because they might retcon them". User:Kirkburn/Sig3 23:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

That is offencive and rude Garm.--SWM24 48 17:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

My apologies. I just remember your naga counter versus their friendship with Broken. Aren't jokes not supposed to be taken seriously? Garm 17:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Those were bullet points without the bullets in corolation to each sentance.--SWM24 48 17:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh. >.< My bad. But wait, couldn't you say the same for mine? Garm 17:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if you did not say 'I'm gonna talk in fragments like Sandwichman'.--SWM24 48 17:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, sorry. Was intended for a joke. Garm 18:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine, I beleve it was in good fun, but in the future do not pick out individual people.--SWM24 48 18:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. ^.^ Garm 18:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Vykrul

Northrend race, and very little lore implemented on them. Garm 20:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Giants even half-giants would be off the list due to player game mechanics.Baggins 20:52, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought our imaginations were the important thing, and that the lore was only controlling which side they'd go to. We know not everything on the list is possible, but you guys seem to have good imaginations (I'm letting Cenarians stay in there aren't I?) Garm 20:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

YOU are letting them? What makes you so special?--SWM24 48 20:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

No actually lore is more important, followed by World of Warcraft's own game mechanics. The page is not about "how to make a race fit through imagination" but more to show the races most likely to fit, based on lore and World of Warcrafts own game mechanics.Baggins 20:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

You guys contradict yourselves sometimes... >.< How unnecessarily complicated this is indeed. Garm 20:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I could probably say the same thing about you, however, I must say that accusing people of contradicting themselves is rude, and fairly fallacious. I've had to go through the article dozens of times to make speculation and what-ifs being used for postives or negatives, and turn them white with the question mark to point out they are speculation only, only to have others go back and break the policy and turn them green or red again. Green and red should be limited only to truly citeable information, or based on current WoW game mechanics (rather than "inventing" suggestions to work around the problems). This has lead to edit wars and lead locking the article in the past, and I'd rather we admins didn't have to do it again someday. The problem is people just don't get the purpose of this article.--Baggins 21:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)21:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Aha... I seem to understand at least 25% of the article itself. Like the Book of Sand, it is infinite. Garm 21:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

So.. are vykrul allowed or not? Garm 21:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No, they aren't. Giants are not allowed. Do you even know what "consensus" means? I've only seen you praise them, and no one else. It takes alot more than one person to get a new race onto the list.Baggins 22:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

A related note, wikis don't need to work on the timescale of hours. Give discussions time to mature - I know how hard it is to try and slow oneself down on a wiki :( User:Kirkburn/Sig3 23:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

For some things it can take days or months for a consensus to be made. Just look at many of the polls and deletion votes that have been put on some pages.Baggins 23:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

High elves (#2)

We might as well suggest them for approval, given Gurulas' convo will be bumped if we put our opinions there, and they seem to be indeed different from blood elves. Calling high elves a "recolor" of blood elves is precisely like calling Shadow a "recolor" of Sonic the Hedgehog. Dispicable is the word for the false callings of them being "recolors". Garm 21:00, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

What, because you were shot down the first time, making a new section for them will make it different? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 23:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't the one shot down. I believe Gurulas was that person. Garm 23:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's put it this way you will be shot down like every single other person who has suggested it...Baggins 23:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay... Garm 23:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Right, I'll put it another way: "What, because the idea was shot down the first time, making a new section for them will make it different?" User:Kirkburn/Sig3 00:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Kirkburn`s got a point.-User:Airiph/sig 00:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Much better, Kirkburn. Anyway, the general topic is for approval of these races being added on. I put them in so that they get approved of. Elementals never got declined or approved...Garm 00:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually elementals were declined by the staff. Mainly because they broke one of the biggest rules for this article, races must be "humanoid". Two they doh't have legs, they don't wear full clothes. There is too much of a variety, and most are already "pets" for shamans and mages.--Baggins 00:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They can`t even wear armor at all--User:Airiph/sig 00:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Bracers much? And platemail for the voidwalker. Garm 00:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, they wear one or two pieces of clothing? That still ignores the fact that they can't wear full armor sets, they don't have legs, they don't wear any of the normal humanoid armor found in the game, or the fact that they are still not "humanoid" in the game mechanics.Baggins 00:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You said yourself that Flamewalkers are considered Humanoids. And you're forgetting Undead Forsakens in the RPG are in fact considered Undead. (I've read the first book at a book store whilst browsing) Garm 00:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

If we put Elementals in,I have a list of things that we should put in after that you`ll decline--User:Airiph/sig 00:27, 30 September 2007

(UTC)

List 'em. Garm 02:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Flamewakers are "Outsiders" actually in the lore. Flamewakers aren't true elementals either, they just live on the elemental plane.Baggins 00:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I'd just like to point out that what we mean is humanoid in shape (which elementals are certainly not). Drakonids, for example, are physiologically humanoid but categorized as Dragonkin because dragons deserve a class of their own... (so stop adding non-"Humanoid" negatives!).

PS. I'm not sure you'll get much support for flamewalkers. --User:Vorbis/Sig

This is getting offtopic, as i stand i am still ready to fight for a place for the High Elves, While it is correct that blizzard has to change several things to make High Elves playable im sure they can do it, We cannot base it all on what we know, remember the Draenei?, before no one suspected they were Eredars, then blizzard added new lore supporting this and retconned the whole Draenei idea... Same could happend for High Elves. --Gurluas 10:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It could happen. I'm going to assume that noone cares and that the idea is that it's neutral. With the Draenei thing, you're right, except Eredar are not friendly NPC's of the opposite side, whereas high elves are NPCS (Alliance-favored), but a majority of them are now blood elves on the Horde. Not everything in the RPG books is official, by the way. (Do you notice that noone in WoW other than Silithus NPCs mention Brann Bronzebeard as of now, before Wrath of the Lich King?) Garm 16:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

So what you're saying is, because someone was only mentioned by name and had a camp named after him, populated by his friends ... he wasn't "official"? That's quite weird logic ... User:Kirkburn/Sig3 16:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

... the RPG books aren't always lore-following. Garm 16:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Example? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 18:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently there's "enough" high elves in the RPG for them to be playable amongst the Alliance. And yet there are blood elves in the Horde. Garm 18:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You know the RPG books aren't set in the present day in WoW? User:Kirkburn/Sig3 18:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They can be compared, Eredar are corrupt Draenei, Blood Elves are corrupt High Elves.--Gurluas 17:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The rpg defines the lore. Yes,high elves are playable, but in the RPG you can play as pretty much every race you want, yes people can play as a leper gnome. It doesn't matter what the race is, as long as they are sentient and sapient, though some races are more likely to make you part of the Independents than others. Plus there is no pesky gameplay mechanics to make them all near equal humanoids like in World of Warcraft. Races in the RPG are much more realistically varied, and if they are a demon then they have demonic weaknesses, if they are undead they have undead weaknesses, if they are livng they have living weaknesses. Plus any strengths to being whatever type they are. The rpg doesn't break lore, its just far more open and larger scale than WoW can possibly be.Baggins 18:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, though it is not canon as such in World of Warcraft (is it?), it tends to indicate Blizzard's general views and ideas regarding the world of Azeroth; and they are thus likely to follow the beaten track unless it goes against their plans.

Oh, and Gurluas, by your comments above are you suggesting that we also add Man'ari eredar to the list due to their similar status of likelihood to the high elves? --User:Vorbis/Sig

Vorbis, according to Blizzard all sources of lore are essentially the same level, there is no internal concept of "canon" as fans argue it. Metzen is in charge of it all, and involved with the processes of all of them. He's also one of the writers for additional material in the books, and even one of the authors on several. Infact not all things that happen in WoW happen in the lore, there are matters of material that conflict with each other dependent on which race you play, or couldn't both happen. The two quest lines that lead to drakkisath's death are not complimentary, and compatible. The quest to get the ring in gnomeregan has obviously two outcomes, it can return to its designer in Ironforge, or for the horde be sold in Ogrimmar. A good example the choice between the two centaur tribes. Plus characters you are sent to kill don't necessarily die in lore, only to come back later. The published lore tends to lock down what actually happens (published lore is the novels, rpg, and comics/manga).Baggins 19:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I am mistaken: what I meant was that WoW lore isn't RPG lore, though it is likely to follow on from it in order to keep a sense of unity and direction. --User:Vorbis/Sig

No because the Man'Ari Eredars are evil, The High Elves are good... i used the Man'Ari Eredar example to show how much blizzard could change a race by add extra lore, so im sure they could fix the problems for high elves mainly: land, language, and appearance.

Oh there is alot of cross-over. Stuff in WoW was mentioned in the RPG first, and WoW just expanded on it, and other stuff was mentioned in WoW first. The RPG has locked down several outcomes for quests, that have influenced what happens in later added quests in World of Warcraft. They effect each other.Baggins 19:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems my attempt to aid your explanation has needed an explanation itself :D.

Gurluas, the blood elves are evil yet playable. If you wish to suggest a race which was built upon to create a similar race, then so shall I. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Yes but Blood Elves are not leaders of the Legion, also High Elves were important races during the second and third war, and they have beards, blood elves have no beards.--Gurluas 04:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No? Then what's Kael doing with Kil'jaeden? Eredar have been important through history too (with a more considerably different history to their cousins); from the War of the Ancients all the way through to the Third War - that's over 10,000 years of Azerothian history! Won't that count for something? Oh, and they have no beards (or hair of any sort), whilst dreanei do. The blood elves do have beards in any case; unlikely to be much different from the way their high elven parents styled theirs... don't eredar look so likely?

Enough of this though. Maybe you don't see my point: you hang onto high elves by the fingertips with nothing but a scrap of hope resting on blue eyes and a droopy mustache; with nothing but a... religion of sorts seperating them and the blood elves. Humans have more racial variation within their species than these guys do. Hey, how about this: if I don't shave, does that make me a race choice called "Bearded Human"?

I'm not sure whether it's possible to convince you that high elves are a goner; so I will simply ask you this: don't suggest them or make any further arguments for them on this page. Please. Frankly, I think we've had enough talk on this subject. :) --User:Vorbis/Sig

They have alot of racial variation, their culture, appearance and style is completely separate.--Gurluas 13:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Blood elven culture is to paint high elf buildings red and take drugs, they appear identical but for eyes (unless you are blind you cannot fail to notice the total similarity) and they decide to wear red versions of whatever high elves have got and add gold trimming and a few sequins. Hell, if you dressed a high elf in red (which they don't wear at all, in order not to be confused as a blood elf!), equipped him with a pair of shades and gave him a long fringe you couldnt' tell the difference!

Look at the model in modelviewer (or just in-game!), at the architecture and at the pride and arrogance of the two peoples (species would be entirely innacurate...) and tell me what you see and tell me again that you are not blind.

And finally, stop outright denying everything and either concede that high elves are not possible or come up with an argument that works! --User:Vorbis/Sig

Quilboar

Word of note the RPG says that Quillboar have been historically hostile with all the races of Kalimdor, and pretty much like no other races but their own. Also throughout the rpg are stories of the Alliance or alliance races battling the quilboar. Apparently they are a threat to Bael Modan as well.Baggins 21:53, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

"Races of Kalimdor" being an emphasis. Let's see dwarves, humans, gnomes, and even blood elves (Lordaeron races), or ethereals, arrakoa, and perhaps draenei (Outland races) get hated by quillboar. Garm 02:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually it says they hate all "sapient races" other quilboar. I've added the citations.Baggins 02:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

There we go. Now we've got your argument to have a slight foothold into this. Garm 02:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Archive?

Should we archive this page?It`s getting pretty long.-User:Airiph/sig 23:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Ya, you can probably archive 3/4s of the page now.Baggins 23:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Was this good?-User:Airiph/sig 23:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Good work :) User:Kirkburn/Sig3 00:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.--User:Airiph/sig 00:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Pandaren not part of alliance (TBC Interviews)

You do know context right? When those interviews were made it was asking about TBC, at a time when Horde race was known, and no one knew what would be the Alliance race. Rumors thought it would be Pandaren, Blizzard was forced to deny it. Please stop trying to be misleading, and trying to apply something by taking something else out of context. Its rather dishonest, and most people are smart enough to see you took the interview out of context.Baggins 00:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

My apologies. I still know it would be too shady of Blizzard to just have them be Alliance-favored. Garm 00:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they will be going over to any race. Blizzard likes them being Independent too much. They are already said to be independent in the upcoming Dark Factions.Baggins 00:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

We haven't uploaded any info from Dark Factions just yet... Garm 00:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Dark Factions is the "Independent Player's Guide", its been stated as much already. Its the third book following Alliance Player's Guide, and Horde Player's Guide. This is old news.Baggins 00:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Aha. Apparently I'm getting old news... >.<Garm 00:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW, the book isn't out, it won't be out until 2008 (according to Monster Guide Web Supplement.)Baggins 00:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. If I see it next time I go into a book store, I'll buy it, read it, and look through it very carefully (should I see it). Garm 00:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

As will I, I'm already planning to buy it for my collection.Baggins 00:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Whoever gets it... gets it. Garm 00:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Dude, that sounds antagonistic... You do know alot of people are going to get the book right? Its not a competition. Mature much?Baggins 00:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorta. It's more on the lines of using it as significant evidence for Pandarens being more likely to join the Horde than the Alliance. Garm 02:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

That seems to be your problem, you automatically assume Blizzard is going to go out of its way to contradict its own written lore. You are breaking into a biased, "why I would like them to playable" on one side or the other as opposed to Blizzard's stance on the issue. Why would Blizzard change their story, if they already have plans to leave them as Independents? They haven't changed their story throughout the entire RPG so far, every single book with Pandarens has made them Independents, they were neutral race in Warcraft III as well. I highly doubt they will create a major retcon when there is no current purpose to do so.

Since its one of the "independent" races, the rpg will give the wishy washy why certain player characters might fit better with one race or the other for which its known. Judging by the last few rpg source books it probably paraphrase or quote verbatim from earlier source books as well. :p... Remember its an RPG book it makes suggestions for how players to Role play character based on where they'd like to play, but it has to balance it with the written lore too. It includes most of the same authors, so they aren't likely to change their own work.Baggins 02:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I was saying "more likely" on purpose. Pandaren culture seems really familiar to Japan/China culture. Japan was initially independent, much like the Pandaren are independent. Should I get Dark Factions, my plans will be initiated with little to no obstacles, as I'd be using fact to support my opinion. Garm 02:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Except for the fact, that it probably won't have anything to support your opinion, as it still maintains that they are neutrals and Independent. Infact, it'll probably go into every single detail of how they get along with every single race in the world except the evil ones, much as it has done since earlier books. If you want to use the japanese culture, night elves are also based on some elements of the asian culture as well, and some japanese architectural influence. Culture rarely means much.Baggins 02:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. ;) Garm 02:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to say the same thing to you. This is the problem with horde or allianced biased people like you. They think Blizzard has to write the lore the way they want for them, or they have to go out of their to purely speculate what they want to happen or they want Blizzard to go out their way to contradict themselves, to suit their needs. However, while blizzard has made a few retcons in its time, for the most part they were rather minor ones, and didn't involve too many big changes to race history, or culture.Baggins 02:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC) + I have to say the same thing to you. This is the problem with horde or allianced biased people like you. They think Blizzard has to write the lore the way they want for them, or they have to go out or that Blizzard has to go out and contradict themselves, to suit their needs. However, while blizzard has made a few retcons in its time, for the most part they were rather minor ones, and didn't involve too many big changes to race history, or culture.Baggins 02:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Can I mention this is a very silly conversation. How about we have it again when Dark Factions is actually here? As was said the last time we had such Pandaren conversations.

User:Kirkburn/Sig3 02:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC) :: Can I mention this is a very silly conversation. How about we have it again when Dark Factions is actually here? As was said the last time we had such Pandaren conversations.

User:Kirkburn/Sig3 02:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

*snickers* Sure. ^_^ Garm 02:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC) ::: *snickers* Sure. ^_^ Garm 02:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please, I thought it was silly and rude to begin with. I also have to warn antagonist and biased attitude can lead to one being on a watch list or suspect list as a possible vandal. Again we cite sources, we don't speculate what we want sources to be in the future. Speculation is not the purpose of this page.Baggins 02:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

How do you list people who are deliberately playing Devil's Advocate to toy with you? ;) Garm 02:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

If you intend to play devil's advocate, then state that you are using the devil's advocate. Otherwise people think that is what you actually believe. Standard debate and argumenation rules.Baggins 02:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

((Indeed I am. I also believe that Pandarens should be in the Horde, but I'm not as eccentric about it as I would be whilst playing Devil's Advocate)) By the way, we just got into port. Garm 02:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

the pandaren are not in game...don't say they are, there were 2 pandaren allied with the horde in War3 and one vaugely in a night elf mission...vaugely Baldr 23:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was only one Pandaren for the Horde in the Bonus campaign, the Pandaren that gave maiev an item at "Pandaren brew shop" in the Sentinels campaign, one Pandaren that joined the blood elfs for one level (easter egg for winning the secret mission) in the Alliance Campaign, and the pandaren that attack the blood elves in the secret mission of the Alliance campaign.--Baggins 23:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting in the TCG, Chen Stormstout is a special hero type, i.e a neutral hero, he can be hired by both Horde or Alliance in the game.Baggins 03:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I AINT sayin pandaren should join horde OR alliance... just that they, though they could be a neutral race... arn't in WoW... and there was a pandaren that helped Kael, but then he went all "RARGH IMMANA BECOME A CRAZED DEMONIC MANIAC OF DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM" sooooooooo, yeah, chen is merely a single traveller who happened to befriend a person, (rexxar) who, though considered a part of the horde, still doesn't have anything against the alliance... like chen. All ima sayin is that there are NO panaren in game and it is UNLIKELY that they will join EITHER faction unless blizz YET AGAIN twists the previously made azeroth history in favor of a new race for WoW... Baldr 03:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

As long as Pandaren gets an own town in the future, I'm glad. But that's not what were talking about... I don't really see why Pandaren should join the Alliance, as many believes, nor join Horde. They're independent, live with it, or go rotten in a refridgerator. User:Tomatketchup

Horde's opinion on Naga

What is the Horde's opinion on the naga? I am very curious. Garm 02:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Well one comment given is;

Neither the Alliance nor the Horde will welcome them. Neither the Alliance nor the Horde is willing to grant the naga shelter or succor — not that the accursed aquatic elves would seek such boons.^[3]--Baggins 02:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I'm not sure if Dark Factions will introduce much else on 'em that would be of any interest. Garm 02:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They aren't in Dark Factions. They received their new article in Monster Guide, and there was no changes. Although it didn't really go into detail what others thought of them. Just the standard they are all evil, and generally disliked by most races.--Baggins 03:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Well that's too bad. >.< Garm 03:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

There was some interesting new information on makrura, and murlocs opinions of them I think, but sorry that doesn't answer your initial question.Baggins 03:11, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Generally, this would be my opinion:

New Races for Alliance:

Quillboar

Ogres

Murlocs

Furbolgs

New Races for Horde:

Nazrethim

Pandaren

Tuskarr

Arrakoa

:p...Oh, ya, The blood elves in Azeroth apparently held or still hold a friendship with the Naga.Baggins 03:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright from Horde Player's Guide;

When the naga emerged from the sea and attacked both human and orc cities, each side blamed the opposing faction. And so, things grew worse and worse. Both sides now know that Naga were involved.

--Baggins 03:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that point is interesting indeed. That did happen in WC3 too. In the Rexxar campaign, second mission, Samuro the blademaster attacked a human stronghold and set of a hell load of explosives to create enough distiraction for Rexxar and company to sneak into Theramore. The naga did take advantage of this chaos, and struck at the stronghold when it's defences were minimal. I still wonder why the hell the humans there had so much explosives in the base, though... Anyhow, that did happen during the rise of the naga, and that attack is a good example (Indeed, Samuro did, unknown to him, aid the naga when causing that distraction). Indeed, that is a major factor to why the naga is hated in both the alliance and the horde. At least at that point. However, the horde is still more known than the alliance to accept races that are trying to redeem themselves, so a naga tribe trying to redeem themselves would rather find sanctuary in the horde than the alliance. But as of yet, we can't assume there even is a rebel naga community (although the lore does not really forbid a rebel society. Indeed, the trolls already have something similar, as the major troll population are very dark and hostile, while the Darkspears are on better terms with the other races. I believe something similar can be done for the naga). --Kulsprutejojjo 11:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually most horde members haven't accepted Forsaken or the Blood Elves in fully or entirely, that's the reason why they start out as neutral. Its a very small minority in the horde that allowed them in, and Thrall only grudgingly agreed to let them. However lore wise they still have very little trust for the horde, or actually fully "accepting them". There is even a quest or two in WoW that Forsaken can't do because other members of the Horde don't trust them.Baggins 11:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, of course, that is true, but still, they are in the horde, even if they are not very trustworthy. Indeed, they are in a very tenacious alliance with the horde, but nevertheless, they are in it. While the horde leadership won't trust the naga either completely if they are let in, they would still be a horde race, if that would ever happen. Of course, it is currently blasphemy to take for granted they will be in, but I believe there might be some possibility, since they have already accepted two races they don't completely trust, and they could definitely accept one more if the situation got bad. I'm sorry, but your point with the "horde not trusing the forsaken" thing doesn't change that they are not members of the horde. And since the horde did descide to add a race that they don't fully trust, they could do so again, as with the Blood Elves case. However, a more classical horde-ish race, like ogres or goblins, would still have a higher chance to be included in the horde than a dark-ish race like the naga. Indeed, these races (goblins and ogres) have been in the horde before, and many still are, too. I believe the horde would rather accept an ally of old than an old enemy claiming to seek redemption, and would probably only accept the latter unless their aid was really needed, and they desperately needed aid too. A race that has been a loyal ally to the horde in the past, asking to join the horde, would probably not make the horde leadership hestitate to invite them, since they know that race. --Kulsprutejojjo 12:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Alliance accepted in draenei without even knowing who they were too. Which is interesting to say the least as far as how they chose characters for the game. But it seems race choices come down to gameplay first, with lore being tacked on second in some cases. In the rpg the Alliance is more accepting of races than WoW shows them to be. Infact there is still kind of an alliance going on between Theramore and Durotar, the pact is maintained, and trade is made between the two cities.Baggins 12:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... Correct, I do recall it being sourced on some articles here. Although, I think the draenei made it clear that they were aiming for the same goal as the alliance, while the forsaken and blood elves have yet to prove their true goals to Thrall and the rest of the horde, hence the distrust. But I do know that the Theramore-Durotar pact is still around in WoW. Indeed, many horde quests in Dustswallow Marsh involves stopping attacks on Theramore and investigating a burnt-down inn. But still, many humans can't forgive the orcs for their actions in the past, even if they have shown redemption. I believe the night elves feel the same about the naga, maybe even worse. Indeed, the naga are highborne descendants, and the highborne descendant race they look at with least pity is the high elves. The naga are probably even worse viewed by the night elves than the blood elves, since the naga have acted very reckless against the night elves, while the blood elves does not attack the night elves without a very good reason. The naga would have a very hard time to prove that they are not evil to the night elves and the alliance, not to mention that, as former highborne night elves, they looked at the lower-caste night elves (the today playable night elves) with pity, and did not at all agree with them. I doubt their opinions would change that easily. --Kulsprutejojjo 15:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I doubt naga would join the Horde, especially because they attack the tuskarr. Garm 15:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the tuskarr is in an alliance with the horde. Still, we don't know the nature of the alliance yet. We still don't know if they have become full members of the horde, or just seeking the horde's aid until the attacks wear off. In any way, the horde aiding the tuskarr against the naga probably won't strenghen their relations with the naga at all, but rather weaken it more. --Kulsprutejojjo 15:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It works both ways though, according to lore there is a huge number of Horde that refuse to follow the Theramore pact, and attack the Alliance. Alliance isn't very accepting of the Forsaken because so far most encounters with the Forsaken ended up with the forsaken killing the alliance races, or attacking them on sight, or vice versa. There is alot of hate from the Forsaken for th Alliance races especially the humans. Alot of the Horde still holds a grudge against the Alliance for what it did to them during the second war. To be fair they probably have less troubhe with high elves now blood elves then they did with humans, because high elves for the most part stayed out of the Second War except for a few token forces, until towards the end. There is no evidence that high elves ever put orcs into prison camps, or forced ogres to fight in gladitorial games.

As for the alliance, some of the hate of the blood elves actually comes from the high elves who hate and distruat what their "cousins" have become. Plus in recent times they have been known to kill people and absorb their energy, that's a very frightening matter to most the Alliance, and tends to go against much of the Alliance ethical systems. Up there with the anti-warlock and necromancer policies. On the other hand, the Alliance has been known to allow at least Horde blood elf abassadors into their lands, such as the guy in nethergarde, so they must not have problems with a few of the blood elves. Also the independent Argent Dawn but aligned more toward the Alliance, according to Alliance Player's Guide, is accepting of the Horde, also seems to let in those Forsaken that have decided to join their cause. Especially those who have left the Fosaken, such as Leonid Bartholomew. Since the argent dawn are practitioners of the Holy Light, they tend to be on the hit list for the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow however.

One more matter, the player human in WoW are specifically Stormwind humans. The ones who lost their king who was on a diplomatic mission to bring peace between his people and the Horde. So its very hard to judge all of humanity off such a small group. It seems that many of the other human nations that are left, or have been formed are slightly more allowing of Horde in their lands than Stormwind. Unless of course there is a constant battle occuring between the towns. Southshore and Tarren Mill are always skirmishing between each other for example, yes that's been established in lore.

So essentially what you have is a mess, races from both sides having issues with members of the other, holding many grudges, continuing to fight even when there are many groups that would like to bring peace between the races on both sides. That's a total of four pandaren brewmasters that appeared during the campaigns.Baggins 18:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Gnolls need an update

At least from an RPG standpoint. I haven't seen much on them nor kobolds in terms of RPG stuff. Garm 03:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll check on it.Baggins 03:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Garm 03:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

They are in Hero`s of Might and Magic if that helps,=P.-User:Airiph/sig 14:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not own the RPG books. I've probably seen one book at a book store and browsed through it, but that was the beginning book which had insidious claims that the Forsaken were evil. Garm 15:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

"insidious claims" ... er, right. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 16:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Dontcha mean left? Garm 16:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Odd.

Aaaanyway, I think we've firmly established that the gnolls need an update. Don't expect anything which will alter their standing point, though. Whilst you're waiting, it might be an idea to browse through gnoll related articles to see if there is anything you can find which would be suitable for the article. --User:Vorbis/Sig

I added the lore last night.Baggins 19:10, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. Didn't notice with all this editing. ^^ --User:Vorbis/Sig

Ethereal neutrality

This is a spoiler, but at the end of [25-30G] Full Triangle Haramad stops being neutral and joins A'dal.--SWM24 48 20:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Granted. However, he's only one small faction of the entire Ethereal species.Baggins 20:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ethereal armor

An ethereal wearing a hooded robe

Baggins, what I mean by "cannot wear armor" is that, as with undead and their uncovered bones, armor textures are only applied over the body surface. With ethereals and their bandages, this means that any armor applied will be, well... extremely ragged, due to the number of holes in the bandages. Too many bandages = not enough exposure; but go the other way (as with ethereals now) and armor is a ridiculous proposition.

Furthermore, though stripping nude serves no in-game benefit, we then may as well bandage a human and call it an ethereal: you can't tell the difference, and thus being an ethereal is essentially pointless. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Except with a stripped ethereal with just bandages, you still see that they glow, they dont' look "human", they look like how they look in-game. That is Blizzard's art design for that race, and they are already physically set up to wear most armor types, and they don't wear them "ragged". Besides the fact of how they "look" gets into realm of artistic opinion, rather than being a "difficulty". Some people love that they, including their heads, look like glowy, "mummies". All I've tried to do is seperate people's opinion of their "appearance", from the actual in-game mechanics, as well as lore for the race.Baggins 20:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

All armor parts exept shoulders and helms are just the race's skin retextured.--SWM24 48 20:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

But from a lore stand point they are "armor". They can easily be enabled to make armor changeable. Much like they did with naga. Blizzard can "enable equipment for quite a few monster types"^[4]Baggins 20:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

The naga had full skin to paste armor on.--SWM24 48 20:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

From a physical standpoint and game mechanical standpoint ethereals are treated as "solids" for gameplay purposes, and to some degree lorewise. That is why the bandages wrap around them so perfectly as if they were corporeal and they were wrapped around flesh. Look at voidwalkers, they don't have "skin", they creatures of energy, yet they were "enabled" to wear armor too, and they are far less humanoid.Baggins 20:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

So it just LOOKS like there is gaps..

. Clever blizzard. I bow to your knowing things I do not.--SWM24 48 21:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ya a technical standpoint, the appearance originates from just a texture with transparent elements, placed over the glowing "mesh" of humanoid form. It gives them the appearance of bandages over pure energy. The technology is the same used for all the races, a unique texturs such as an orc put over the orc mesh to give appearance of a 3-d orc. If the textures glitch and get put on the wrong mesh you get strange looking creatures, for example the dwarf/fel orc, or the orc/draenei. I once had the game glith out on me and put the gnome texture over the robe "mesh", making my gnome look like he had huge hanging fat handles.--Baggins 21:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ohhh, I see... clever alpha texturing. In that case, I retract my statement. Still... facial features are a bit of a problem.

Anyway, thank god I started this discussion instead of an edit war. ^^ --User:Vorbis/Sig

There isn't exactly a problem with a lack of face. If they wear helms all people will see is the creepy glowing ghost-like orb where a head should be, ;). As for giving the head variety, they'd have to allow for different head bandage designs, rather tha hair designs, since they don't have hair :p. The race would be kinda like the invisible man.Baggins 03:18, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Possibly if the ethereals had a spectral face beneath the head wrappings - as with wisps and, it seems, their unbound form (I think I see a face there...) - and not just their current burning ether, I would agree. Facial animations could then be added, and there could be more variation in appearance. "Hair" decorations could take their design from egyptian/persian/mexican mummies... or the Nazgûl. Actually, I'm beginning to like the idea of ethereals.

However, there is a problem: why would beings of pure energy need a second gender? --User:Vorbis/Sig

Another way to do facial animations for creatures of pure energy is have different pulsating light effects, similar to what happens when you talk to the Naaru. Can you even see the faces in wisps in-game? Really is there a problem with a race needing a second gender to be playable? I take LOTRO as an example to keep close to the idea that dwarves both male and female have beards, and that the race is fairly androgynous or rather towards the masculine side depending on how you look it, there is only one type of Dwarf to choose from in the game. The same thing could be implemented for a race of pure energy. On the other hand you could also define it by voice/color of energy, and of course the female mummy model could be given breasts, and a more female body design as well to which the textures wrap around. So there is more than one way it could be done.--Baggins 18:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)18:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Tolkein never explicitly stated (as far as I can tell) that his Dwarves were androgynous in nature, and as it is clear that the books are male orientated (the human race being that of Men; the entirety of the Fellowship and the villains being male etc.) in addition to real history frequently missing out female contributions in addition to the Dwarves being a secretive, antisocial race that hides in shadow... there seems to be good reason why the male dominated race would not have a great mention of women; especially considering the nature of society in the era in which the books were written. In conclusion, I feel that LotR Online is innacurate, non-canon and almost sacreligious in its implementation.

Aaaanyway... I suppose Tolkein Dwarves are not the point. Back to the subject at hand. You can see wisp faces in-game if you look hard enough; they're the objects bobbing up and down in the blue halo; and appear to currently be all male, though that could be just game mechanics.

Which brings me back to ethereal genders. All current playable races have two available genders, and it would be robbing the players of a choice if the ethereals only had one gender. Nevertheless, ethereals with breasts? Why would such appendages be needed by bodiless energy beings?

Unless someone comes up with another realistic way, I think that only a retcon could allow properly female humanoid ethereals to exist. --User:Vorbis/Sig

I don't don't mean literally androngenous in the traditional sense, just the fact that you can't tell males from the females because of the beards, its mentioned in a few places in his books. There is discussion of how humans can never tell if they were working with a female dwarf or a male dwarf as they all seem to have the same mannerisms, and look "the same". LOTR online never really goes into "sexes" for the dwarves you can only play as "dwarves" and the quests almost never tell you if a character is male or famale or not, and when they do its usually a male, "brothers", etc. It never lets you know if you are encountering a female, at least I can't remember encountering one. The game is pretty close to Tolkien's own notes if you go beyond Lord of the Rings to other works published posthumously. Of course it invented new stuff that you can't find in tolkien's work at all for example Angmar. Angmar was only mentioned but never shown or described in Tolkien's books.

In anycase here are a few of the references from Tolkien's own books or notes;

"Dis was the daughter of Thrain II. She is the only dwarf-woman mentioned in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the dwarves 'grow out of stone'.

It is because of the fewness of women among them that the kind of the Dwarves increases slowly, and is in peril when they have no secure dwellings. For Dwarves take only one wife or husband each in their lives, and are jealous, as in all matters of their rights. The number of dwarf-men that marry is actually less than one-third. For not all the women take husbands: some desire none, some desire one that they cannot get, and so will have no other. As for the men, very many also do not desire marriage,being engrossed in their crafts." -Return of the King, section III of Appendix A.

And here is more;

The Naugrim were ever, as they still remain, short and squat in stature; they were deep-breasted, strong in the arm, and stout in the leg, and their beards were long. Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls. It is said, also, that their womenkind are few, and that save their kings and chieftains few Dwarves ever wed; wherefore their race multiplied slowly, and now is dwindling. - “The History of Middle-Earth“; volume 11: “The War of the Jewels“; part II: “The Later Quenta Silmarillion”; chapter 13: “Concerning the Dwarves”

In other words this it isn't something LOTRO invented or made up, they took it directly from Tolkien's own words himself. I'm taking it sir, that probably never read either of those quotes, or any number of other quotes where tolkien states the same thing, and just assumed that they must look different? If you didn't know that in Tolkien's world the males and female dwarves looked the same, and have the same mannerisms, appearance, and voice, then you don't know enough Tolkien, ;). This is exactly why LOTRO does not have "Warcraft-style" feminine dwarves as it would have went against tolkien. The fans would have been upset had LOTRO team made truly feminine female dwarves. Your theory of Tolkien dwarves, is innaccurate, non-canon and sacriligious in its implementation, ;).

However I agree with you one one point, yes, of course LOTRO is non-canon, it can't be canon as it wasn't written by Tolkien. Being written by Tolkien or at least mostly written by Tolkien (in the case of editers like his son, working on his notes posthumous) is the idea of canon as seen by the Tolkien society, and most Tolkien fanatics. The game itself only tries to follow obscure continuity as best as it can while expanding on the world beyond what Tolkien had written, but obviously anything it adds is not considered canon.Baggins 05:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

"Why would such appendages be needed by bodiless energy beings?"

Why do bodiless energy beings need to have broad shoulders, masculine bodies or wear loin cloths or kilts? Do you think they are trying to hide something? I don't think blizzard picks things apart to that level, and just do it for appearance sake, cause it looks cool. For that matter why do non-mammalian aliens or fantasy races that have alternate means of sexual production such as laying eggs have need of breasts in science fiction and fantasy? Usually just because it looks good... No one really breaks things down to that level, or gets that anal retentive about such details. Its usually always for aesthetical purposes rather than serving some kind of actual purpose.Baggins 05:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, I concede the point (I should have realised the folly of arguing Lord of the Rings with a user named "Baggins"!): my knowledge does not go far beyond the main storyline of the books themselves, though nothing I stated was truly inaccurate. I realise that my stating that "LotR Online is innacurate, non-canon and almost sacreligious" may be interpreted as to place the entirety of the blame on Dwarves, though it is numerous other factors that I disagree with which make up the girth of my dislike for LotRO. As for female beards, they just make me... uneasy.

But again, back to ethereals.

"Why do bodiless energy beings need to have broad shoulders, masculine bodies or wear loin cloths or kilts?"

Ethereals take a humanoid shape (in addition to clothing) apparently only for the sake of the mortal races, who prefer to deal with similarly put together creatures. I agree the model is rather masculine for a supposedly asexual organism, with all ethereals also culturally identified as "males". Nevertheless, a simple arrangement of torso, two arms, two legs and a head without any gender-specific appendages seems the most reasonable choice for a purely functional body shape. Who knows... maybe these ethereals may be truly like your Dwarves.

Also, whilst I agree that mammalian appendages are oddly placed on many "female" creatures irrespective of biological class, with a creature formed of pure energy what would be the point of creating an extra two domes on the torso when energy could be better diverted to creating a shape with greater height or more fearsome appearance? --User:Vorbis/Sig

Well first off all ethereals we have encountered so far speak with masculine voice and tend to refer to other members of their race as he, him, brother or the like, and of course "kings" and "princes". So there is already an implication of masculinity and a male-dominated society. Please don't bring up the idea of that "he" is standard term used for discussing persons of unknown gender. While that is a standard practice in some western society, from a linguistic standpoint it is sign of the society having a generally male dominated language. It is generally uncommon when compared to many other western and eastern societies. Its not 'universal' system in the least. For many cultures its far more common for a non-gendered term such as "they" to be used to denote an unknown gender.

Again even female energy beings in other fantasy or science fiction series that have a humanoid shapes tend to have breasts for asthetic purposes, and generally so that the audience can relate or have attraction to such a being. The bottom line is is usually designers don't think in terms of biology but rather what the audience will be interested in, and let's face it in most of western society at least US western society, breasts are usually found to be attractive. So from a design standpoint a female race needs to have something to make it attractive, and following Blizzard's current pattern with most races having exaggerated breast sizes, Blizzard would probably do the same for "space mummies" if they decided to make them a playable race, and wanted to give them two sexes.

Indeed, being an energy being doesn't necessarily note that a race is "sexless", or "asexual", for infact many science fiction series have energy beings that have gender. Energy beings are creatures of pure imagination, and can be designed to have any number of society or reproductive traits.

"maybe these ethereals may be truly like your Dwarves."

I'm neither Tolkien nor did I write Lord of the Rings, its appendices, or war of the jewels or any such writing, so they are not "my dwarves". Sorry to disapoint you.

As for LOTRO, while it does have alot of its own additions, many of those additions are made from obscure references you'd either have to know where to look and be well-versed in History of Middle Earth and Unfinished Tales. One complaint in early version of the game was they were going to make orcs and goblins seperate races to add variety of enemies, but instead made them all "orc-kind" before the game was released. Another complaint sometimes is the creation of the dourhands which some believe are completely made from scratch, however the base on obscure references to existence of dwarves that sided with the enemy during the wars, in some sources, and they may also be based some-what off the "petty-dwarves". They are not of course the seven clans discussed or mentioned in Tolkien's writings. But of course the game is non-canon, but that's kinda of irrelevent to a discussion on ethereals.Baggins 19:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

"Please don't bring up the idea of that "he" is standard term used for discussing persons of unknown gender."

I made no such assertion, neither can I recall anything of the sort. If I did, however, I apologise. I did, however, state that "all ethereals are (currently) culturally identified as males".

"Again even female energy beings in other fantasy or science fiction series that have a humanoid shapes tend to have breasts for asthetic purposes, and generally so that the audience can relate or have attraction to such a being."

Yes, you do have a point. Nevertheless, I still find it somewhat ridiculous. Oh well, "sex sells".

"Indeed, being an energy being doesn't necessarily note that a race is sexless, or asexual."

Hence my use of "supposedly". Evidence for female ethereal existence is currently lacking, though.

"they are not "my dwarves". Sorry to disapoint you"

I do apologise. I did not mean for the comment to be sarcastic or insulting in any way. --User:Vorbis/Sig

"I made no such assertion, neither can I recall anything of the sort. If I did, however, I apologise. I did, however, state that "all ethereals are (currently) culturally identified as males".

I mostly meant not bring in later discussion. I as mentioning it in advance to try to prevent it showing up in later discussion. As some in the past have made the arguement that calling something a "he" could be using it just to denote an "unknown" entity. Especially if one believes something may be "asexual". Of course we agree that there is no information for reproduction practices of ethereals :p... lol.

"Evidence for female ethereal existence is currently lacking, though."

Indeed. I don't think any quests or ethereals you can talk to, every bring up anything of their society beyond technology and money :p...

I do apologise. I did not mean for the comment to be sarcastic or insulting in any way

Sorry for misreading your comments.--Baggins 19:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm afraid I have nothing more to argue with but "sticks and harsh words" as Kael said (oooh... so nerdy). I guess ethereals may happen after all... --User:Vorbis/Sig

A much as I love trying to understand walls of text about... Lord of the rings online... Etherials can be brothers and twins, so they may reproduse sexualy.--SWM24 48 20:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

'Please don't bring up the idea of that "he" is standard term used for discussing persons of unknown gender.'

Actually, it is only a clever play on many cultures' (not just Western) male-dominated view, that in WoW (with a semi-medieval setting) a probably even asexual species is called "he". ;) Enough joking, I don't really know many languages where neutral subjects weren't addressed like a male (a neutral "it" might even be offensive, at least from an author's point of view on an alien species they created), actually English is the only one I know that uses "they", and even that seems to be a rather modern phenomenon, at least in the big picture, to avoid referring to an online person of unknown gender with the wrong pronoun. (Though, as I'm not a native speaker, I may be wrong there) ~

ŋ ɑ ϑ 09:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually taking a linguistics class right now, and I can only regurgitate what the textbooks claims. What I said above was what was stated in those books and the teacher. If they are wrong or not I wouldn't have a clue. But since the books are definitely written by linguistics who are quoting other linguistic experts, I'm probably more likely to take their word for it.Baggins 13:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to have to take your word and hence the one of those books for this - unless I investigate myself! Nah, too lazy, gonna torture some rams instead. Let's just say the Etherals either are asexual, have no or few females in Outland or simply don't worry about the fleshlings addressing them all with male pronouns due to their lack of distinction.

ŋ ɑ ϑ 14:51, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Technically I think they refer to themselves more as "he, prince, brother, king" than fleshlings do, :p... From what I remember most Ethereal quests are from Ethereal quest givers who give out quests that lead to other Ethereals and there aren't that many "fleshlings" that give out quests leading to the Ethereals.

P.S. While I find the linguistics class occasionally interesting its not my cup of tea as far as anthropology fields go... :p Most of the time it bores me. :p.--Baggins 14:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Annihilan

This had been approved by Sandwichman and me. There was a consensus there. Now, let me do this the hard way: Talk page first, then standby for agreements. Garm 20:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

General

<Dark green>+ Possible Forsaken-type lore. With Mannoroth gone, the annihilan would be scattered as to who would rule them over next.

<Dark green>+ Possible draenei-esque lore. With no history on annihilan, it is possible for uncorrupted annihilan to exist.

<Dark green>+ They are intelligent and have their own culture, based on physcial strength.

? Females do not currently exist in-game

? Pit Lords were a neutral hero in WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne and sided with anybody they found to be more powerful and who paid well.

<Orange>- Pit Lords can fly just as well as a large bird, albeit being very heavy. As per harpies it is probably unlikely that Blizzard would make a flying race.

<Red>- While they have few actual technical difficulties, those few difficulties are as large as the annihilan themselves.

For the Alliance?

? It would be somewhat unlikely for draenei and night elves to tolerate the annihilan should they join in the Alliance. However, if a pit lord can crush them to bits, then they'd have to accept them as an Alliance race should they join. "

For the Horde?

<Red>- Mannoroth was responsible for enslaving the orcs, and Magtheridon is responsible for creating fel orcs. Orcs in-game in Shadowmoon Valley fight annihilan on their own free will.

Comments

"<Dark green>+ Possible Forsaken-type lore. With Mannoroth gone, how else do the annihilan survive?"

Actually, this would actually be a ?, as it is pure speculation.

"<Dark green>+ Possible draenei-esque lore. Could non-corrupt annihilan exist?"

Also pure speculation so it would have to be ?.

"? While the annihilan have wings, they cannot fly due to their massive weight."

Actually they can fly according to the Warcraft RPG, They have "poor flight ability. The creature flies as well as a very large bird." We know what has been said about flying creatures in the past.Baggins 20:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No. Just, no. They're too big. Period. Everything else on the list is at least smaller than a house, let alone a doorway. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Not to mention the published lore for them, Pit Lord doesn't fit the Alliance or Horde without a major retcon. This page is not about inventing major "retcons".Baggins 20:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The two lore types that they would go with wouldn't be "pure" speculation, as it is dark green for everyone else. Garm 20:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

What is it with continually making new sections for something we discussed only a week ago? Kirkburn talk contr 20:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to conform a yes on this. Garm 20:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Except, given the above points (and despite the previous "no"), you are left with one dark green, a plethora of speculation, and two reds. Hardly a convincing case? Kirkburn talk contr 20:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Dark green is reserved only if a race has a previous positive connection to another race, and actually citeable from a published source, not "they are similar, possible what-if scenarios". We have tried to make this clear in the intro, but you have been blind to each revision we have made.Baggins 20:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW for anyone curious the different flight types are;

Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.
Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all.

For further clarification of poor flight pit lords can fly as well as say a condor, a chimaera, an obsidian destroyer, Neltharion or Lady Onyxia. Any dragon for that matter. Only the flight speeds differ somewhat between these various examples.--Baggins 20:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose "poor" is in regards to aerial manouevres, not flying distance (condors being particularly good at flying extremely long distances). --User:Vorbis/Sig

Indeed.Baggins 21:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Mangletooth

Ok I want a bit of confirmation. Ok lore wise from what I can see from his quests Mangletooth is a prisoner to most of the Horde, rather than a truly "Horde character"... Now what I would like to know is does he ever get released by Horde, or does the Horde continue to keep him locked up as a prisoner? Because from what I can see lore wise it looks like he's only helping out player characters, but the rest of the Horde doesn't trust him. I also know he's PVP tagged for Alliance as well, but that may just be a game mechanic, rather than lore. It seems the lore and mechanics are a bit at odds on this matter, if he's never actually released by those in charge, and they continue to keep him as a prisoner.Baggins 09:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What has his to do with future race ideas? User:Tomatketchup

It was being used as a strong point for the Horde under quilboar. In anycase I looked into the matter and cleared it up.Baggins 10:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

No one said Mangletooth was a Horde member. Mangletooth is unique because he overcomes his racial hatred of orcs first helping you for his own reasons, then actually befriending the player. Giving info and power that was instrumental in saving Tarujo. To answer your question no he gives up on getting out saying his time is coming up. Zarnks 03:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Half-Elves

I know already that the majority of the people here don't believe High Elves would make a good future race. But what about Half Elves? I'm pretty sure that they're not too similar to Blood Elves, High Elves, or Humans. Would it be acceptable to add them to the list? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by White Lighning (talk · contr).

Sign your posts. The only half-elf in the game currently just looks like a blood-elf/high-elf. Unless Blizzard takes the time to give Arator his own in-game model, I don't see the race being very viable any time soon.--Baggins 04:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thats what I had in mind, if added, to get their own in-game model. After all, remember how Blood Elf NPCs were just a recolored version of Night Elves before the expansion was released?--White Lighning 05:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually most blood elves had their own modelsFile:Elsharin (original).jpg before TBC was released, only a few high elves used night elf models.Baggins 05:19, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes they are too similar too high/blood elves. Plus, as there are even less half-elves than remaining high elves, I don't think they could justify the inclusion as a playable race.

ŋ ɑ ϑ 08:40, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If high elves aren't likely, then half-elves certainly aren't likely. Being both high elf and human, and also few in number, they certainly won't bring anything new or exciting to the table. --User:Vorbis/Sig

Noting that half-elves have a population of around 9,550 in Eastern Kingdoms alone (their population in Kalimdor and Northrend are Unknown), which is about the same as the entire population of Darkspear trolls (the entire population of Darkspear according to total between Lands of Conflict and Lands of Mystery is about 9580 trolls give or take any non-alligned jungle trolls), quite a bit more than the Stonemaul ogres (who have a population between 480 members, and limited to Dustwallow Marsh) according to the RPG. The numbers issue is the least of the problems.Baggins 18:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

^ Horde Player's Guide, pg. 156
^ Horde Player's Guide, pg. 157
^ Alliance & Horde Compendium, pg. 54
^ World of Warcraft The Burning Crusade Official Strategy Guide, pg. 331

[1] Horde Player's Guide, pg. 156

[2] Horde Player's Guide, pg. 157

[3] Alliance & Horde Compendium, pg. 54

[4] World of Warcraft The Burning Crusade Official Strategy Guide, pg. 331

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