Talk:Astranaar

Thorns

There's no rounding of civilians on the Horde side. --Mordecay (talk) 22:44, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

That something is not shown it doesn't mean it didn't happen. The elves say it was the Horde. I would presume that instead of Saurfang and the players, after the Horde quest, the Forsaken commanded by Sylvy killed them. --Ryon21 (talk) 22:46, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, while the quest doesn't explicitly require you to murder all the civilians, the NPC does commend how cold-hearted you are if you do. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Shall we start taking bets about who killed the civilians? :p Xporc (talk) 11:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Sylvanas didn't do it. :smug: — SurafbrovWarcraft Wiki administrator T / C 12:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Or of course Sylvanas and the Horde didn’t do it at all, and a third party is to blame, just like what happened with Teldrassil. Until there is confirmation either way, it’s pure speculation to assume the Horde ia responsible. User:Highlord99

Name a single point to suggest that the most logical explanation isn't the right one here. Unless Blizzard throws something in from left field, I don't see a reason to not go by what seems obvious. It could be that you are right, but there's really no reason to believe so at this point. Sentinels in Forsaken poison and civilians in Forsaken poison. It seems straight forward what went down. PeterWind (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

The difference is that there is nothing suggesting the Horde didn't do that. There's no mention of a possible third party. What you are doing is really Horde biased because you don't want that kind of wording suggesting it was the Horde who did it. Unless there is something, the most minimal prove, that suggests it wasn't the Horde, then for now they did. And before you jump for it, we editors try to stay on Neutral ground and there are a lot who play the Horde here. Unless you find prove, we'll leave things as they are explained in-game. --Ryon21 (talk) 16:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

It's not speculation. That sentence is using a reference, which points to an NPC saying it's the Horde. The reader can decide for themselves whether to believe or not the source used, but that's not up to the wiki. Just like how 90% of all the lore is derived from NPC quotes and quests. This is staying. -- MyMindWontQuiet 16:46, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

With the appearance of the Forsaken Assassins (with the description in  [110] Knives of the Forsaken) on the Alliance side, it clearly shows the civilians were killed by the Horde. Even the Horde side kinda leans towards it, even though that's not the main objective, with the appearance of Lorash. End of story. --Mordecay (talk) 23:26, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

The proof you say doesn’t exist is the fact that no civilians are killed during the Horde assault, depending on how one does the quest with Lorash. Even if you kill the civilians with him, only 3 are killed, not the entire town. You accuse me of Horde bias, but all of you are jumping to the worst possible conclusion without stopping to think. That shows clear Alliance bias from all of you despite any claims to the contrary, and as one of you said, editing is supposed to be neutral. Frankly it doesn’t matter what Alliance quests or NPC’s say, or where Horde NPC’s are located. Unless one of you can provide definitive proof that the Horde somehow attacked the town a second time after player characters completed the first attack and saw the Horde armies move on to Darkshore, you have no cause to keep vandalizing the page and deleting my corrections. I have no intention to let this wiki become a complete mishmash of fanfiction simply because you’ve decided to band together against any fact-checking and attempt to restore objectivity. Like it or not, wikis are meant to be neutral, objective databases. Finally, just because you think something happened a certain way doesn’t mean it did. End of story. User:Highlord99

We move on what a quest says, doesn't matter who says it. Just because the Alliance quest says something doesn't mean it is not real. There is nothing the Horde says that contradicts it. As we have told, when the Alliance arrives at the town there are Horde assassins in it. Basically there are evidences that point on the Horde doing it but none proving the contrary. This is no speculation. --Ryon21 (talk) 23:52, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

What does this section hint at? Ohh right, I guess they were just playing cards with the locals untill they all slipped and fell in the blight pools intended for the guards. Why would the Forsaken station guards in a ransacked town where all inhabitants were already dead? The army of the Horde may have marched on, but the only "third party" is the Forsaken. PeterWind (talk) 23:57, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

The entire town isn't killed either; only those few named civilians seen in the Alliance & Horde quests there. The proof exist in the poison on their bodies and the assassins literally hanging around them. It is also entirely possible that the part of the Horde quest about killing civilians didn't happen lorewise and is non-canon - stuff presented in the game and being non-canon is something that is happening in Warcraft - but the Alliance one is pretty clear about the killers. But, yes, both versions, with correct wording, should be mentioned somewhere; that shouldn't hurt to point out. Maybe the two novellas will also shed some light on it. --Mordecay (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

unindenting...

I haven't taken part in any edits on this article, so I don't have a favored position. Just chiming in as a neutral editor.

Highlord, bud, "Astranaar" is the only article you've edited since you created your account. I don't know what classes/races/factions you play or where your affiliations lie, but please try to assume good faith on the part of other editors. Other editors will do the same in regard to your edits. Calls to prevent a "mismash of fanfiction" don't really lend themselves in that good-faith assumption, however. --k_d³ 00:00, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Frankly, I see no reason to provide good faith when I see no indication it will be reciprocated. So far, I’ve mostly seen the opposite if anything. I’ve tried to make this as quick, clean, and civil as possible, but after the most recent displays of condescension today, my patience is up and I won’t apologize for putting my foot down in response. Now, if it can be admitted that both versions should be conveyed, why aren’t they? Why is it the worst possible conclusion is the go-to version that must overshadow all others? NPC’s and the quest descriptions they provide aren’t objective sources of information. Wikis are supposed to be, as I’ve said and some of you have agreed. The alleged in-game evidence you all have pointed out is circumstantial at best. Knives and poisons don’t differentiate between faction or group. One toxic cloud looks the same as any other, and matching poisons used to coat the daggers of rogues as all of you no doubt remember. This happened with the Purge of Dalaran as well; both factions got separate versions of events. If the Alliance version must be conveyed despite its inconsistencies, it shouldn’t be done so exclusively. Let the Horde have their version conveyed as well. After all, again, as one of you said, editing is supposed to be neutral. User: Highlord99 28 Jul 20:24 2018 (EST)

Okay let me rephrase it. The Horde quest happens, your character doesn't kill any civilian. But, after you leave, Forsaken Assassins kill them all. Evidences? The poisoned corpses around the town, near the Forsaken Assassins. The town in flames, etc. Tell me how these things do not match, and at what point a "third party" could have gone in and kill them because of reasons? I don't see anyone mention it. With an army passing through town, leaving them alive and not taking prisoners? Just, how they couldn't have been killed by the Horde? Show me one strong evidence all these things couldn't have happened and instead someone else did it, because the way I see it, there is no other answer until Blizzard does something, which I really doubt they will. You say we are "vandalizing" the page when you have not been able to show us proof. So please, help us find it. --Ryon21 (talk) 02:37, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Seriously, Highlord99, I agree something is fishy with the event and I don't think the Horde will burn down Teldrassil, but you don't have to be such an ass about it. You're acting like you're "protecting" warcraft lore from us when you've only been here for a few days. Now then, on the matter at hand, there is simply no proof at all that "at some point after the Horde left, someone also killed the civilians". It's possible, but there's simply not a single evidence. So we'll stick to the version that the Horde killed everyone considering its assassins are still roaming the city, until we get evidence that something else happened. Xporc (talk) 09:21, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether the Horde player killed the people or not. The fact of the matter is that Forsaken Assassins, so the Horde, did. And there's a quest and NPC also saying that they did it. There is no contradiction or ambiguity at any point regarding the Horde's actions.

But more importantly, what you are missing, is that the sentence is using a reference that points to a certain quest/NPC. It's then up to the reader to decide whether or not to believe that source, just like every single other quest or NPC reference in the wiki, not to the editor/Wowpedia to dismiss it. -- MyMindWontQuiet 12:32, 29 July 2018 (UTC)