Talk:Telredor

Retconned

Can we please agree on the fact that Telredor is completely bogus and has been retconned by the mere fact that Zangarmarsh couldn't have hosted such a complex because it was the Zangar Sea and Draenei aren't amphibious?--KIROCHI) 13:45, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

While this, and other differences might be odd, I think it can probably be attributed to how WoD takes place in an alternate universe. PeterWind (talk) 14:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Why obviously, but do you imply that Zangar Marsh wasn't dried by and after the destruction of Draenor, but by some other reason that predates it in the main timeline?--KIROCHI) 21:04, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah no I guess I was just a little confused about what you meant when you say retconned. I mean the town is still there in Outlands, where usually at least, when I think retconned, I think removed without a trace left. Was telredor ever present in the alternative Draenor? It's anyone's guess if there's no mention of it. I suppose Telredor could have been destroyed prior to the opening of the portal at the launch of WoD. Although I agree that would be kinda weird seeing as there aren't any ruins in that area as far as I've seen that would indicate that being the case. I think it's just one of the differences between the two universes, as some buildings present in both Outlands and Draenor look different past simple wear and tear. PeterWind (talk) 22:19, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree, but my real point isn't about Telredor. It's about Zangarmarsh itself. It seems that:

1) Telredor is implied to be several centuries-old: "Telredor has seen more change in the last 20 years than it did in prior centuries. I cannot complain, <name>, for the world has changed far more in that time." (source: Anchorite Ahuurn#Gossip).

2) This means without a doubt that Zangarmarsh is implied to have been a marsh and not a sea for "prior centuries", because there is no reason to establish a monastery under the sea. It would be the very lone occurrence of such an architectural experience on the Draenei's part, without any justifiable reason: they can't breathe underwater, they weren't afraid of land-dwellers as evidenced by the nearby city of Shattrath, and they have established all monasteries and other religious buildings in reachable locations rather than hidden ones (with the notable exception of Telmor, which is close to the very noticeable Auchindoun and reachable but cloaked in an invisibility field), unlike the Arakkoa (see Skettis and the Veils), the Orcs (see Vault of the Earth) and to some extent, the Ogres (see Gordal Fortress) the other three known humanoid, intellectually and technologically-advanced, widespread species on Draenor. The fact that Zangarmarsh is supposed to have been part of the landmass for at least a century (my interpretation here) is further evidenced by this quote from the now unreachable info from Worldofwarcraft.com: "Zangarmarsh is a tranquil area that has largely evaded the demonic influence. The marsh's innumerable lakes and pools are clean of any taint, and most native animals and fungi give off soothing phosphorescent light. Only recently has the area's self-contained ecology faltered. Something is causing the water levels to drop. The marsh's giant mushrooms are dying, as are the creatures that rely upon the mushrooms for food." (source: Zangarmarsh#History, no link provided to the original source). Not only is it stated that Zangarmarsh has been around for long, it also has been free from (demonic) corruption until Illidan's arrival.

3) However, it is commonly accepted to have originated from a sea that was there until recently, and dried up because of events coinciding with either the First or the Second War: "At some point, either because of fel corruption, because of Draenor shattering, or because of the aforementioned intention to overtake the land, the Zangar Sea was transformed into a swamp that is known now as the Zangarmarsh." (source: Zangarmarsh#World of Warcraft).

4) This last assertion is not sourced by the WoWpedia contributor who wrote it and is the weakest point in my argumentation (compare with the WoWwiki pages Zangar Sea and Zangarmarsh where the assertion is absent). However, new possibilities arise from the acceptance of the fact that it is unreliable. Either:

a) the WoWpedia contributor who included this argument saying that main universe Zangarmarsh was dried up from Zangar Sea recently because of the Burning Legion invasion did it from speculation (however the speculation tag present in the section above regarding Warcraft III phenomena only appears to effect said section and not the World of Warcraft section which I drew the quote from), in which case another speculation tag is needed within the World of Warcraft section, and we should stop believing by default that there was a Zangar Sea immediately before Warcraft I in the main universe, or

b) the WoWpedia contributor who included this argument saying that main universe Zangarmarsh was dried up from Zangar Sea recently because of the Burning Legion invasion did it from ignorance, in which case we should stop believing by default that there was a Zangar Sea immediately before Warcraft I in the main universe and differences between the main universe and the Warlords of Draenor universe are such that the Zangarmarsh had already been a marsh for centuries before the events of Warcraft I. Ultimately,

c) the consistency of the World of Warcraft universe is flawed perhaps because contradicting statements abound, and any attempt to make sense of such points is irrelevant and may or may not be addressed by the canon lore creative development team within the Warcraft franchise in the future.

I willingly ignored the proposed reasons for the transformation of Zangar Sea into Zangarmarsh because I felt it would sway the focus of the debate. According to the latest sources, "the Zangar encroachment [...] would later bloom into the Zangarmarsh" (source: Seaborne Spore#Pet Journal), which means spores were released into the Zangar Sea from Talador's Zangar encroachment, which arguably was only a passage point for fungal invasions since Zangarra is an Ogre archeology dig site, and thus used to be Ogre land before being colonized by fungal beings. The same invasion could have taken place in the Warlords of Draenor universe, but much later than in the main universe.

I also ignored the fact that Orebor Harborage, the other main Draenei settlement in Zangarmarsh, is said "In the past, [to have been] a center and place of draenei civilization, learning and trade" in the novel World of Warcraft: Illidan, chapter 3, mainly because it is close enough to the southern Blade's Edge Mountains border, which means that it could have existed independently from the Zangarmarsh, in a Zangar encroachment predating the complete disappearance of the Zangar Sea.

To accept a conflicting point of view, I would need proof that Blizzard implied that main universe Zangar Sea disappeared recently. I don't wanna hear about any underwater mushroom containing a whole monastery, that is stupid.

Kiitos ja näkemiin--KIROCHI) 13:17, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

If the Zangar Sea in the main universe, looked more or less like the Zangar Sea of the alternate universe in the past, what is the problem with the main universe dranei building Telredor on top of a large mushroom in the water? Not under water, but on top of the mushroom. I don't really agree with you on Anchorite Ahuurn's gossip quote either. If he only specifically talks about Telredor being centuries old, I don't think you can so surely say that Zangar must have been a marsh for centuries aswell. PeterWind (talk) 06:10, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, obviously I was mistaken, since I forgot Telredor was built mostly atop the mushroom. It cannot be said that Telredor's absence is so strange, since the Iron Horde could easily have raided and destroyed it on their way to Shattrath. It is merely strange that no one would mention it. And the story of a recent draining of Zangar Sea waters still holds up. I was wrong, my deepest apologies.

However, I believe that the following paragraph in "Notes" doesn't hold up : It is possible that the fel energies that spread across Draenor caused this mushroom to grow, first of all because the growth of mushrooms doesn't have anything to do with fel energies in most occurrences (if not all), and furthermore this is implying that the building of Telredor would have taken place after the growth of the mushroom which would have taken place after the demonic corruption of the land. I think it should be removed.--KIROCHI) 15:50, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah agreed. We see that the mushrooms are enormous on Draenor aswell so their growth can't really be atributed to fel energies. If Telredor is centuries old, it would have had to be built long before Draenor's destruction either way. And yeah while it is posible that a Telredor of the alternate universe could have existed and simply have been destroyed it is pretty weird that no mention is made. My own belief is that Telredor simply never existed in the alternate universe, but again there isn't really anything concrete to back that up either. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence afterall. I saw some alpha Draenor map the other day which seemed to imply that there had initially been some plans for the Zangar Sea, that got scrapped before release. Perhaps Blizzard just "forgot" about Telredor. PeterWind (talk) 16:08, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Done, thank you so much for your help :-) I get passionate about lore issues ^^--KIROCHI) 17:53, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Hehe yeah I can see and that's cool :) PeterWind (talk) 19:01, 18 May 2016 (UTC)