Talk:Scourge troll

What is the model-name for the ingame "scourge troll"? Whatever the model name is should be noted in the article.Baggins (talk) 06:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

They're called Undead ice trolls. Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 07:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Move

We should move this to Undead troll. Undead trolls have no page, instead they're using this one which immediately associates them with the Scourge when it's not necessarily true. As of MoP, the Drakkari are part of the Zandalari and used undead trolls during the Horridon fight. Nothing to do with the Scourge. We could then maybe have a subsection or a note saying that some of them used to be part of the Scourge. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 18:42, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

A bit late here, but yeah, "Undead ice troll" at least has some sort of reference unlike "scourge troll". Could also go with "Risen Drakkari", as it seems to be the most common naming for them NPC-wise. Decided to comment due to the recent bettername banner. WarGodZajru (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I think you are underestimating how close the then-canon Lands of Mystery and Wrath of the Lich King match up despite coming out two years earlier. Seems pointless if the new name is made up.--SWM2448 18:49, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm with MyMindWontQuiet on this one, undead ice trolls aren't the only undead trolls either. We have undead sand trolls and jungle troll zombies (Zanzil's doing) and so on. So a page for undead trolls could then accumulate all those types. There are also the undead forest trolls in Eastern Plaguelands. And as MyMindWontQuiet said, can have a section under the undead ice trolls that some of them used to be Scourge-aligned. WarGodZajru (talk) 19:05, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Do undead troll, as a whole, actually have lore to talk about?--SWM2448 19:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Fair point, as I don't know right now. Would require reading through a whole lot of quest text to find out. WarGodZajru (talk) 19:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

There's a bit yeah. The Scourge ones, the ones that showed up in Throne of Thunder, the Grizzly hills ones, etc. Then you realize that not all of these are part of the Scourge, and so this page's name makes no sense. It's not pointless. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 19:19, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

"[All undead trolls] existed and did things." is not a good premise for a page if there is nothing notable separating them from other disparate troll groups. Scourge trolls have a unique model, a clear plot in WotLK, and formerly had their own RPG entry as a unique type of encounter. I think it would be batter to just add the free ones that showed up with the Drakkari later to this page.--SWM2448 19:31, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

No they do not have a unique model. Risen_Drakkari_Champion

The premise would explain what undead trolls are, and then go on to explain that they have been seen either under control of the Scourge, or serving the Drakkari, and would mention mummies. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 19:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

You mean the model was used again later, for the same creatures, but not "Scourge". Therefore all undead trolls get the same page? Are any of these creatures in WotLK not Scourge?--SWM2448 19:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

While undead ice trolls have their own unique model, undead forest trolls and sand trolls have their own unique textures. It's essentially the same thing. Not to mention, they are undead trolls of different types, with somewhat varying lore between them. We know that undead sand trolls have  [Darkest Mojo] within them. We know that jungle troll zombies are made from concoctions from Zanzil. And so on. Essentially they're all undead trolls, and belong in the same page, where it addresses all the different types rather than having them spread out all over the wiki with different or non-existing names. WarGodZajru (talk) 19:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

We have Zanzil (group) and Sandfury tribe. Should this be merged with Drakuru trolls?--SWM2448 20:12, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Zanzil's group makes sense, Sandfury tribe is a tribe, so that shouldn't be merged, Drakuru trolls are an example of Scourge-aligned undead ice trolls. What me and MyMindWontQuiet are on about, is making a "Undead troll" page where we include all the variants of undead trolls we've seen throughout the course of WoW, what their alignments are and so on. Drakuru trolls under Scourge, Sandfury zombies under Farraki, Zanzil being under Zanzil/Gurubashi, the undead ice trolls from MoP being under the Drakkari/Zandalari, and etc. At least that's what I think. Idk if I'm completely confused atm, lmao. WarGodZajru (talk) 20:28, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

We do not have an undead human page that lists Forsaken and Zombies and ghouls and death knights. Why trolls and why now? All you have is properties of small groups of undead trolls. Will there be a 'list of necromantic rituals' page?--SWM2448 20:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it's an outright bad idea to have an [Undead troll] page. That being said I don't think that scourge troll should be moved there, or be the basis for a possible page about undead trolls. Instead of redirecting to the Troll page, the Undead troll could list the various groups of undead trolls, and their main features. Sure, not all undead trolls are members of the scourge, but no reason to dilute the term scourge troll by mixing the name of that group up with all undead trolls either. PeterWind (talk) 20:43, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Either a page yes, or have it on the Troll#Troll_species page like Gnome#Other_gnome_races -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:46, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

For my part, why I brought it up is mostly because I feel having things organised in one space is better than having them all spaced out. If someone would want to look up undead trolls sometime, rather than surfing 15 pages on here, they could go to 1 where most of it is compiled. I didn't even know about the undead humans or anything. WarGodZajru (talk) 20:50, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Maybe try a sandbox page and then see if it has any real substance.--SWM2448 20:52, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Bump. The page is still listed as a move candidate even though no consensus was reached. Xporc (talk) 11:58, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm still with MyMindWontQuiet on this. There are more than just undead ice trolls as well. Such as the Mossflayer tribe of forest trolls has a bunch of undead trolls, along with the Farraki tribe. So, might as well have a page for undead trolls in general, where all types can be listed, by subspecies and whatnot. From Scourge, to Zanzil's zombies, to Farraki zombies, etc etc. – WarGodZajru (talk) 11:09, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm against a page about undead trolls in general. There are no similar pages for undead humans, undead orcs, etc. If you want to talk about undead trolls, put it on the undead page.

On the other hand, what about renaming "Scourge troll" to "Scourged troll"? It's almost the same word and applies to both kind of risen drakkari. Xporc (talk) 11:16, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

But that page would still not include troll zombies/mummies would it? PeterWind (talk) 11:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

yes but as stated above, I don't believe we need a specific page to list undead trolls in general. Xporc (talk) 11:20, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Essentially with that logic, we should rename it to "Scourged ice troll", then create "Voodoo'd sand troll" and "Zombified jungle troll". Best would be to just summarize it into one page, "Undead troll", gets to the point in less than a second. Humans don't have 6 subspecies like trolls do, which explains that argument. Undead trolls have also arisen in multiple ways. Scourge/necromancy, Voodoo and Zanzil's alchemy skillz. – WarGodZajru (talk) 11:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

The reason this page presently exists is because Scourge trolls had their own entry in the RPG, as well as their own 3D model in the game. My name change suggestion was to try to satisfy everyone. If you want to create a page about mummies in general, whatever they race is, it'd be cool. But a page that would simply says "undead trolls exist" is not needed. Xporc (talk) 11:29, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Having their own 3D model shouldn't be too different from having unique undead skins for the other subspecies. Sure, less work went into it, but it's still unique. My goal isn't to create a page about mummies, never was, never will be, my goal is to summarize types of undead trolls seen in WoW. This includes scourged Drakkari trolls, who'll have their RPG entry and whatnot present still. No need to remove that. But with an "undead troll" page, knowledge about the other types of undead trolls seen in WoW, can be brought up as well, and summarized on one page where it's all relevant. Instead of being spread out around random quest and tribe pages. Not just a "hey, look, these exist", which is basically the premise of every page on this site, "look this exists in lore, in-game, in novels" and whatnot. There's plenty of info about different kinds of undead trolls to fill up a page, unlike your example of "different" undead humans. How the Scourge has risen some, how some has been made by Voodoo, how others came to be by ingesting a potion/elixir, where they're located, their affiliations and so on. – WarGodZajru (talk) 11:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Then create a sub-part about it on the main troll page, dude Xporc (talk) 11:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't really see the problem with a page on undead trolls. PeterWind (talk) 12:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Consistency. Undead gnome is slated to be merged with Gnome, and Undead elf/Undead troll plainly redirect to their racial page. There are also no Undead human, Undead orc, etc. pages. Xporc (talk) 12:08, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't care about having a page about Undead trolls in general, or have that supposed page be a section of Troll, I just don't want this page to be called Scourge troll because it's incorrect and misleading. So either rename it Undead troll, or incorporate it into the Troll page, I'm fine with both. -- MyMindWontQuiet 13:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

What about "Scourged troll"? Like Scourged Whelpling, Scourged Footman, etc. Xporc (talk) 13:53, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

That still means they have a relationship with (normally, victims of) the Scourge, while not all do. -- MyMindWontQuiet 14:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the way I interpreted it, the Risen Drakkari at the Throne of Thunder are former scourge trolls that were simply unleashed by their living brethren. Are there any proofs that they practice necromancy by themselves? Xporc (talk) 14:45, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Voodoo can raise the dead, but, there's nothing about the Drakkari using it for that purpose as far as I know, no. – WarGodZajru (talk) 15:04, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, farakki have mummies. -- MyMindWontQuiet 16:35, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Look, I don't want this page to be tagged with a {{Move}} template forever, and no consensus was reached. So I either remove the tag, or someone creates a vote, or you guys actually try to sandbox a page for all undead trolls if you want to try it. Xporc (talk) 21:13, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the purpose of this page is. Seems like it's just RPG info. Plus a listing of undead trolls from Northrend at the bottom. -- MyMindWontQuiet 22:44, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

The RPG info was about undead trolls from Northrend. Your solution was to make a list of every type of undead troll.--SWM2448 22:53, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Yeah because it makes little sense for a page called "Scourge troll" to have a list of both Scourge and non-Scourge troll. If we want to list both, they should be in an "Undead troll" page. But a page just for undead trolls would be inconsistent, they should got in a subsection of troll.

But I don't think either of those are needed. I think this should be a pure RPG page. -- MyMindWontQuiet 23:48, 9 September 2017 (UTC)