Talk:Ogre mage

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Blue Skin

Not all ogre magi have blue skin. Mogor is still yellow and so were the Wc2 ogre magi. Should it be added that only some's skins changed? --Shadowy Crafter 00:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, its true that written lore and game mechanics don't always fit.Baggins 00:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There are also a number of regular ogres in WoW that have blue skin. It seems like the blue has been retconned to just another skin tone for ogres. -- Dark T Zeratul 01:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It can't be a retcon since the blue skin references actually were made after the release of "World of Warcraft" (unless you are argueing that the later published source retconned World of Warcraft), this is more of a gameplay issue vs. written lore issue.

A similar example can be found in published lore for draenei. For example Rise of the Horde, called all draenei, "blue" yet in game they come in a variety of colors ranging form white, pink, blue, and purple. Essentially its common practice for published lore to simplify, over generalize, exaggerate, or base something on some established "average".Baggins 02:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Pink draenei? --Xavius, the Satyr Lord 17:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

I cleaned up the history section. It repeated itself twice and wasn't organized in any cognizable fashion. No substantive changes were made to the language or facts.Dwoedin 20:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

While I appreciate the help you didn't move the citations around properly. You are more than welcome to try again, but next time make sure you are careful to add more citations if split the info apart, and move it around. Currently each citation on the page represents a paraphraph from the same source.

Also remember, the proper terminology is currently "ogre magi" and lower case like all race names. Do not spell it "Ogre-Magi" thank you.Baggins 04:41, 22 December 2007 (UTC)Baggins 04:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Natural occuring

In tides of darkness, Gul'dan mentions that two headed ogres, as well as ogre magi, occured naturally, but were very, very rare. The ogres he created using the altar of storms had slight physical differences to normal ogres and ogre magi, and that not all of them were infact ogre magi(he estimated that one in ten were), but every ogre he altered did have two heads. It should be noted that of the three listed notable ogre magi, none of them were created via the altar of storms, they all existed before its creation.Tweak the Whacked 11:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually there is mixed lore on that. Some sources state they existed before the creation of the altar of storms others say otherwise... :p... Ya this is one of those areas where Blizzard isn't exactly consistent on the issue.

For example;

When the Horde laid siege to Caer Darrow, they were repelled for a time by a massive artifact; a powerful runestone, enchanted with ancient magic of unknown origin. Gul’dan perverted the artifact, slicing it into great slabs to construct the first Altar of Storms. Gul’dan called his minions to the altar, sacrificing many of them in dark rituals to ensure his success. His efforts were not without fruit; Gul’dan first experimented with the living, and used the runestone’s magic to create a new breed of warlock that would not so easily fall to Doomhammer’s swords: the ogre magi. Cho'gall, the first of these new ogres, was fanatically loyal to Gul’dan for his gift. Together, the two created yet more ogre magi, and prepared for the next step of their plan...Gul’dan...Cho’gall...the two gathered orcs and ogres around them, forming the Stormreaver and Twilight’s Hammer clans.

However there is another possible interpretation, Cho'Gall may have existed before hand as a regular ogre, but as lore states was turned into an ogre mage during experiments. There are enough sources that seem to imply that yes there were rare two headed ogres before the ogre mages, but these were not ogre magi themselves.

Also if you haven't noticed ogre magi come in one headed and two headed varieties as well.--Baggins 03:54, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well as there is conflicting information, both should be listed, just like both versions of the Sargeras/eredar corruption are listed. The exact text regarding the first ogre transformed with the altar, an ogre chosen by Cho'gall, are as follows, starting with the physical differences:

"It was still clearly an ogre, though even larger than before, and somehow its proportions had shifted. Its arms weren't quite as long, its legs not quite so bowed, and it held itself different, more alert.

And ofcourse therewere the two heads.

Back on Draenor, two-headed ogres were incredibly rare. They were bigger and stronger than their kin and more coordinated. They were venerated, and Cho'gall was the first seen in generations. Even more rare, he had proven intelligent enough to become a mage. Gul'dan had found the two-headed ogre when he was still young and had trained him carefully. Cho'gall had proven a valueble assistant and a powerful warlock in his own right, and still remained with Gul'dan to thi day. And now it seemed that Cho'gall was not alone.

The new two-headed ogre turned and stared at Gul'dan, somehow realizing he was in charge.

"What am I?" it demanded, one head speaking wihle the other looked around. Its language skill was far greater than a normal ogre's as well.

"You are an ogre," Gul'dan replied."Perhaps an ogre mage."

Gul'dan goes on to explain the working of magic to the ogre, who displays the capability of casting spells. He then explains about the horde and its purpose, and the other races that opposed them. He mentions that Cho'gall is an ogre mage, leaves the new ogre mage to Cho'gall to instruct, and allows Cho'gall to oversee the remaining transformations, noting to himself that at best, one in ten transformed ogres would be ogre magi, which would be all he needed to create another altar, in hopes of transforming every ogre in the horde that he had access too.Tweak the Whacked 06:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed if there is conflicting information both should be listed. Just pointing out that there are different versions. Remember, just avoid using terms like "retcon" compare and contrast both versions as neutrally as possible, just listing the differences, but neither treating one source more valid than another. Thank you.Baggins 06:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Also note there is yet a third version of his story, in which Gul'dan had no part in teaching him. Cho'gal taught himself magic;

Initiate of the fifth circle of the Shadow Council and Chieftain of the Twilight’s Hammer clan, Cho’gall is one of the grimmest and most respected leaders within the Horde. Cho’gall was the first of the Ogre-Magi, having tutored himself in magic before the Horde’s passing into Azeroth. Cho’gall has a special loyalty to Gul’dan who helped the struggling yet determined ogre to master the arcane energies of the Twisting Nether. Cho’gall is a firm believer in his clan’s sacred mission to bring oblivion to all peoples of the far-realms.^{[citation needed]} 

Still this information would probably fit better in Cho'Gall's article than in this one.

--Baggins 07:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that the history of Ogre Magi in the Warcraft II manual and Cho'Gall's history are somewhat contradicting (as it states that the ogre-magi were created after coming to Azeroth, yet it says Cho'Gall was implied to have become an ogre-magi before coming to Azeroth).

The Ogre-Magi were originally a small band of extremely loyal Ogre enforcers, transformed by Gul’dan into scheming and malicious sorcerers. By warping and twisting the Elf-magiks of the Runestone at Caer Darrow, Gul’dan was able to infuse the magical abilities of long dead Warlocks into the bodies of these unsuspecting hosts. Once hulking simpletons, the transformed Ogre-Magi can direct their death magiks as easily as their lesser cousins would deliver a crushing blow to any foolish enough to stand in their path. The Ogre-Magi have also become extremely cunning and insidious - serving the Horde only as they see fit.

Never say that contradicting lore is a new thing developed by WoW or the RPG.Baggins 08:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Chicks

We obviously know there are Ogre Mage dudes and Ogre females, so is it possible Gul'dan made female ogre mages too?   Mr.X8 Talk Contribs 21:16, 9 January 2008 (EST)

Heads

I do not know any ogre magi without two heads, but do they exist? Noobi666 (talk) 11:17, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm Blue...

"In addition to gaining intelligence, a newly created ogre mage’s skin turns blue.HPG 214 Those who pursue the path of the warlock develop a blue tinge to their skin, a side-effect of wielding necromantic energies."

So warlock ogre magi have blue skin with a blue tinge to it? Now how does that work? Also,

"Those who pursue the path of the warlock develop a blue tinge to their skin, a side-effect of wielding necromantic energies."

Warlocks and necromancers are the same now? Xavius, the Satyr Lord 20:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Ogre Magi gaining a new head

I can't find the exact quote, but I remember stuff in Warlords of Draenor like the alternate counterpart of the two headed Mogor being one-headed. The Dagg page also suggests he got another added by magic, though he isn't an ogre mage so maybe that should be removed.

I can also look in the Tides of Darkness novel, as I believe there's a quote there describing an Ogre gaining a second head after a ritual from the Altar of Storms. Feel free to add anything to the page. Gann Stonespire (talk) 23:28, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

• After a few minutes the shadowy glow began to fade. Slowly it dimmed, and the figure within stood out in greater detail. Still the ogre towered above them all, except Cho‘gall, but something about the creature had changed. Gul‘dan waited impatiently for the glow to dissipate enough for him to see into the sphere. Finally it did so, winking out completely in an instant, and Gul‘dan had his first real look at the creature his Alter of Storms had created. It was still clearly an ogre, though even larger than before, and somehow its proportions had shifted. Its arms were not quite as long, its legs not quite so bowed, and it held itself different, more alert. And of course there were the two heads.
• Back on Draenor, two-headed ogres were incredibly rare. They were bigger and stronger than their kin and more coordinated. They were venerated, and Cho‘gall was the first seen in generations. Even more rare, he had proven intelligent enough to become a mage. Gul‘dan had found the two-headed ogre when he was still young and had trained him carefully. Cho‘gall had proven a valuable assistant and a powerful warlock in his own right, and still remained with Gul‘dan to this day. And now it seemed Cho‘gall was not alone.

Direct quote from Tides of Darkness, saying the ritual adds two-heads. Should we add this to a Retcon speculation section? Also its interesting both the Warcraft RTS games, World of Warcraft: The Comic and World of Warcraft depict two-headed Ogres that are not Ogre Magi. Gann Stonespire (talk) 23:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Very useful to note, I would think. Before Tides of Darkness came up with the head idea, the idea of two-headed ogres being so linked to ogre mages (instead of just a general ogre thing) comes from WoW: it was an easy way to tell caster ogres apart from melee ones at a glance.--Sandwichman2448 (talk) 00:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

• it looks like the history section does mention rituals being used to make one-headed ogres grow another head. though it looks like it doesn't include a ref for page 63--which quote is that?

& yeah, mentioning two-headed ogres who aren't mages sounds good Eithris (talk) 00:37, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, thats true, WoW definitely associated "Two-Headed plus Ogre equals Magic user", though there are a few two headed Ogres that aren't Mages like Stonard Ogre off the top of my head.

Oh sorry, I realized, I used an e-book page from Tides of Darkness. The physical page is the same as the one in cited the biology section of the article, page 196.

I find it really strange that Gul'dan, powerful as he is, can create a new individual mind from scratch with a mere ritual from the Altar of Storm and think the Altar of Storms just imparting magical powers makes more sense, but I'll make note of it in the article.

Back to the article, should I mention the heads thing in the biology section or should I make a retcon section?

Final thing to note right now, should I mention that Warcraft II depicted Ogre Magi as smart (and also generally more coordinated than non magi two headed ogres), with Warcraft Adventures: Lord of the Clans implying Mugg'roth's dumb head becoming that way by a head injury (not exactly something you'd see in a modern game), but WoW depicts many Ogre Magi characters like Mogor and Or'Dac as dumb and talking in third person? Gann Stonespire (talk) 04:54, 18 August 2023 (UTC)