Talk:Height

BradyGames guide

Despite the World of Warcraft: Beginner's Guide being published by BradyGames, it was made available through Blizzard in lieu of their own game manual from the game client download page. It's still there as of today (SS). --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:45, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure it should be treated like it currently is.--SWM2448 19:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, looking at the credits in the Beginner's Guide, they had Blizzard staff working on it (Quality Assurance and CDev). --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:49, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Blood elves were said to be 7' tall for several months because BradyGames happened to say so, naturally I got rid of that. While some Blizzard staff may have looked it over, good for them. I wouldn't consider it canon nonetheless, as it isn't stated directly by Blizzard or from official Blizzard sources. And as far as I have seen, some guides end up saying one height regarding a race, then another guide says something else (growing or shrinking), tauren were sometimes 7 feet, sometimes 8 feet, and ended up being wrong on multiple occasions (according to internal charts), along with many other errors. Seems like some really poor quality assurance. I'm all for keeping the current values until Blizzard someday (maybe, maybe not), give official values for all the races, just making sure people acknowledge they should be taken with a grain of salt due to coming from BradyGames and non-Blizzard sources in general. WarGodZajru (talk) 20:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Lore Heights & BradyGames: The Long-Awaited Sequel

Proposal

Purge Game Manual and Game Guide sources, explanation below.

Explanation

Game Manual

My silly fascination with heights never allowed me to get over the fact that the "lore height" section always felt strange to me, even after I did my few edits to it so I finally—definitely took too long—went to check the sources accredited to The Burning Crusade Game Manual, which I found a physical copy of on my shelf, only to be informed by User:Surafbrov on Discord that there exists a web version, haha... Well, now you can see what I see at least.

Anyway, I looked at the pages 16-17 and surprise surprise, there is absolutely nothing about height there apart from a shitty fucking height chart at the bottom which we have access to on the Height page itself.

Now don't give me a "oh but that height chart was made by Blizzard yada yada," sure, you're not wrong. But look at it. Look at that atrocity of a height chart and tell me that shit is accurate. It uses old in-game models, it does not use orthographic view, the models are barely standing on the same plane, they're not standing straight like you would when you go to get measured in real life; aka everything about this height chart is awful and unprofessional and I honestly question if it was even meant to be regarded as lore heights as opposed to just model heights, with which it was more or less accurate at the time.

In fact, it's so unprofessional that the in-game model height chart I made is miles more accurate than that thing, as I've provided exact numerical values and I could even add more exact values than which I did, as I didn't want to flood it with decimals. And I am genuinely not saying that to toot my own horn but in hindsight it kind of hurts to know that we've been using that manual as the source for lore heights for so, so many years when it's literally just a picture of outdated, badly aligned in-game models that someone looked at and decided to round up races willy-nilly to the nearest height marker and deem it "official lore heights".

BradyGames

We discussed BradyGames on Discord as well and found out thanks to User:Dark T Zeratul that the quality control there is virtually non-existent, which does not come as a surprise as I suspected so in my first post above, 3 years ago. The fact that tauren height went from 6' to 7' to 8' and blood elves being 7' and vice versa between the different guides goes to tell just that. And I'm sure those aren't even all the issues with BradyGames' guides, which turn out to be including mobs and NPCs that don't even make it to release and so forth, they should definitely not be used as official sources that's for sure. Not even when there is nothing else to go by, that's how bad it is.

Conclusion

I definitely think we should wipe all the Game Manual and Game Guide sources because the first is far more speculative than I've ever been with any of the heights I've listed on this page—I've always made sure to use the latest and most official sources in my research, I'm clearly too invested in this admittedly silly shit not to do so—while the latter isn't even written by Blizzard and barely got checked for inconsistencies. Not to mention, BradyGames turned out to be very incorrect about tauren height after finding out the "internal chart" height for tauren is 10' (male) and 9' (female), if that chart is even a thing. We need Blizzard to give us these damn internal charts, I don't see why that has to be kept private if it actually exists and it's not just an excuse they fall back to when randomly replying to one person once in a blue moon on Twitter, sigh.

Anyway, I propose we keep the official sources we have and then tell people to use game models as reference for those races that do not have an officially confirmed height, or we intergrate the updated model heights into the lore list and make sure to notify people of that being the case.

Because as it is right now, we're already using in-game models on that "official" list, albeit outdated and awfully aligned, as sources for "lore height", so we might as well use the latest there is and I've provided just that and I'm happy to update it if models ever receive more alterations.

• Sidenotes
  • Sorry for the long read.
  • Also, I am slowly updating the height chart I made with goblins and worgen who received their updated models, vulpera, as well as gnomes and tauren whose models were altered in patch 8.2 for their heritage armour so those races (except vulpera) are currently slightly incorrect on the game model height list, not by a lot except for male tauren who got a fairly substantial 4" increase to their height. — Mattalari (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Votes

Yes

1. Yes Mattalari (talk) 19:07, 18 August 2020 (UTC) - (Nominated)
2. Yes —Eithris (talk) 00:18, 19 August 2020 (UTC) - (the game manual's height chart is just a lineup with no real numbers, and the beginner's guide was written and published by a third party that has absolutely put out guides with errors before. the info from them should at the very least be moved out of the main table, imo.)
3. Yes PeterWind (talk) 10:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC) - (Alright, sandbox looks good to me. Changing my vote.)
4. Yes Xporc (talk) 12:13, 6 September 2020 (UTC) - (I don't care but I don't want people to be stuck waiting for nothing either.)

No

1. No PeterWind (talk) 21:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC) - (I don't think we should wipe all the Game Manual and Game Guide sources. I don't mind, if an emphasis is added in the notes, on how these numbers are quite possibly out of date though. I'm not saying that what you are saying is wrong, but it seems to me that a lot of that falls under what I would call anecdotal evidence.)

Abstain

1. Abstain — SurafbrovWarcraft Wiki administrator T / C 12:25, 6 September 2020 (UTC) - (As long as the information is still documented, don't mind. Rather note the inconsistencies instead of removing the information even though it is incorrect.)
2. Abstain Ryon21 (talk) 15:22, 6 September 2020 (UTC) - (Same thing as Suraf.)

Comments

Excuse me PeterWind but what? How is this anecdotal evidence? I've bought physical books and learnt modelling software using the same unit of measurement as WoW does to make sure my research on this particular topic is good and true, I've double and triple checked many times, even if months apart because I had a feeling that I was perhaps wrong, and sometimes I was and I corrected myself, if you want actual anecdotal evidence then look at the sources we have right now and the image they're based on, here's the edit in question. The "source" we use is not a source at all for the numbers we have, a person on this wiki literally looked at it and rounded the out-of-date, in-game character models up or down to the closest height line without numeric values when they're not even on flat ground or standing properly, I cannot stress how you seriously, seriously, seriously cannot get more incorrect than that. I'm sorry, and no offense, but I'm honestly baffled to hear you say we should keep it, it's the most speculative thing on this entire damn page if you actually take a moment to think about it.

I'm not saying my chart is correct on all accounts either compared to Blizzard's internal chart, tauren for example is a bit off, although male tauren in 8.2 had their model altered and went from 8'8.9609" (~8'9") → 9'0.9979" (~9'1"), making my chart even more accurate to the internal chart even though it's 11 inches off (told to be due to gameplay reasons such as passing through doorways, makes sense, fair enough), while for orcs it's pretty damn close, more so than the height chart you think we should use, which makes that chart more wrong than my own when it comes to internal chart accuracy because guess what, they're both using actual in-game models, one is just super outdated and awfully made while I actually spent a good amount of time making sure everything was correct down to the T, so if you want to use player character models as a source, we might as well use the latest thing we have in that case, even if I don't work at Blizzard because it's the exact same thing, mine's just made with more love, stupid passion and modern assets.

And yes I'm salty, not because you didn't vote yes but because the reason you voted no is because you're basically saying we should use a person's speculations based on a bad chart with no numeric values as the source for official lore heights, it's literally better if we don't mention any lore heights at all if you think we should use awful source material and someone's random rounding up of that source material as sources for something that is claimed and supposed to be official. The majority of that list literally deserves a speculation tag for what it is. I'm sorry for getting worked up but honestly, I seriously don't get how you're thinking about this. —Mattalari (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

No need to put words in my mouth. I already said that I don't think you are wrong about the height of the models. I am not one to dispute that. If the numbers currently stated aren't pulled from any official source, or officially endorsed source, then it's another matter. The problem is that you are talking about a lot of different things all at once. I get that you are passionate about this topic, but for someone who may not be an absolute expert on this topic, there are many details that you might take for granted yourself, that are left out here. I'm saying I don't think the references to the Brady Games manuals should be removed, and you are instead talking about some fanfic edits made several years ago, if I am understanding you correctly? Now there's the question between lore vs game. Are your estimates about the current models correct? Probably. What official numbers have Blizzard given us? PeterWind (talk) 23:26, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I get how it reads that way but that's why I added in "basically" before "saying" because I wanted to convey that it's how I interpreted your response from my point of view, alas, it's easily misinterpreted and text isn't the greatest form of communication all the time. But yeah, I apologise if I made it too convoluted to read, I do think I wrote a bit too much but I felt like it all had to be said, I could've probably condensed it better though.

Anyway, I just saw the BradyGames manual that we're using as a source and holy shit, they surpassed even the TBC game manual in the "worst fucking height chart award" look at that and tell me that's worth using as an official source (page 10 is the height chart, or 6 if you search in the top left apparently). Even the specific pages for the races mention a different height, the fact that their height chart is so horribly inconsistent with the rest of the guide tells me their sources should be thrown the hell out because the entire guide is just a mess.

But I digress, yes the values we have listed as "canon" are fanfic from an editor on Wowpedia 6 years ago, based on an awful image from Blizzard. And so is the height from BradyGames because it isn't actually from Blizzard, that alone should be enough to disqualify the sources on this page.

Well, when it comes to lore vs. game, one example of an official height we have is male orc, Sean Copeland on Twitter (dead link obviously, so that sucks) said orcs according to the internal chart are 7' for males and 6' for females, my height chart put males at 6'10.8338" (~6'11") and females at 6'0.6422" (~6'1"), meanwhile the TBC manual has male orcs at 6'. I mean just look at both the TBC and BradyGames height charts and compare it to the one I made, you see how awfully inaccurate they are, if you want to make a good height chart, making sure all the models are standing on the same plane in orthographic view is the least you can do. But what's the point in me trying to describe with words when you can just look for yourself now and see that the materials we've been crediting are just straight up garbage regardless of where they're from. Just because it's from Blizzard doesn't mean it has to be used, sure, no need to delete it from the entire website but it sure as f**k shouldn't be used as a source when it's so horribly inaccurate. I just noticed that the TBC manual uses vanilla WoW alpha models for several races, holy shit how did I miss that, what the actual fuck.. –Mattalari (talk) 00:22, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Right, right. Well now we're getting somewhere. So the numbers we have, that cite the Brady Games book as source, are from when an editor looked at that chart from your link, and just did some rough estimates. From your link, it seems that no text actually acompanies the chart with the, as you point out, poorly alligned models. As such I can agree that yeah, that chart does not look official at all. I would be interested in seeing how you think this should look instead of what we have. Perhaps you could whip up a sandbox, showcasing the change you wish to see implemented? PeterWind (talk) 01:28, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Took your suggestion and whipped up a sandbox, my main thinking right now is to try and improve readability, I think it's nice to have all the units of measurements listed but it would really benefit from having some sort of colour coding to make it easier on the eyes, that's for sure.

And another thing it could benefit from is a better expand template that I could use to hide the "Patch changes" section with, because I think that information is good to have, however, it does take up a fair amount of space sadly. Hmm... —Mattalari (talk) 02:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Alright I'm more or less done with the sandbox, not much else I can think of right now. I'm still slowly working on updating the visual height chart though that comes down to how much energy I've got, but I have done some work on it so it'll be finished eventually, also making it easier to go in and edit in case of future updates which I didn't consider with the old one. Any suggestions, objections, etc or should I go ahead and update the actual page? —Mattalari (talk) 22:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't know about removing the data. Even if it's unreliable and likely incorrect, it's still worth documenting. I'm okay with separating it from the main table though, perhaps to its own section or page. -- — MyMindWontQuiet 12:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Yea what MMWQ wrote. It is still official so we should still have it documented. — SurafbrovWarcraft Wiki administrator T / C 12:19, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree with MMWQ. --Ryon21 (talk) 12:23, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

My question then is; which data is it you want to keep specifically? Because the majority of the values and sources we currently have listed as "official" are a jumbled mess of guesswork based on the TBC manual's height chart, values based on BradyGames' even more awful height charts (nice in-game lighting there) and values mentioned on race-specific pages in the BradyGames guides.

I take it you want to keep the latter, in which case, I'd still prefer to not include those either as to avoid all possible confusion. But sure, I can try and find these values, although the issue is, I do not own the guides to look through in-person so that complicates fact-checking and comparing different guides' data as I've so far only been able to find a PDF for the MoP guide, I'll look around some more but I honestly cannot confirm what values on that current list are and aren't from the guides' race-specific pages, that's how bad that "official list" is. It hurts how bad it is. —Mattalari (talk) 13:09, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks to Surafbrov, we can gaze upon the work of art that is the height chart from World of Warcraft: Warlords of Draenor Signature Series Guide. Well at least they have WoD models this time despite the 7'+ tall blood elves, they sure love to contradict themselves. Also thanks to Surafbrov I can now confirm that the racial descriptions from both the Beginner's Guide are the exact same, word for word, as the ones in the WoD signature series. Not that it makes this any better but at least there's that. I'll go ahead and see what I can do in terms of documenting BradyGames' stuff in my sandbox. —Mattalari (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Updated the sandbox with a section for BradyGames. Maybe it is best to keep it documented after all, if only to be something to be laughed at...... —Mattalari (talk) 16:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Night elf height

There are a variety of sources from the novels describing the height of night elves:

• "Although over seven feet tall themselves, the trio [Malfurion, Illidan, Tyrande] were dwarfed by Cenarius, who stood well above ten." chapter 4, The Well of Eternity

• "Now at last Hakkar and his pets no longer stood alone among the night elves. Now there were three others, horned giants with crimson visages that some found horrific but that Lord Xavius could only admire. At least nine feet tall, they loomed over the Highborne, who themselves were more than seven feet in height." chapter 14, The Well of Eternity

• "Night elves aged very slowly, but the young Malfurion looked much older than his few decades. He still stood as tall as any of his people—roughly seven feet—and had their slim build and dark purple complexions." chapter 1, The Sundering

• "Lord Kur'talos Ravencrest stood in front of the high, stone chair where he usually held court and faced the assembled commanders. A tall figure even among the seven-foot-high night elves, he had a long, narrow visage much akin to that of the black bird whose name he bore..." chapter 3, The Demon Soul

There are also sources outside of the War of the Ancients Trilogy:

• "The figure stood a few inches taller than Broll, who was not short himself at seven feet." chapter 9, Stormrage

We are given a pretty solid insight on how tall night elves generally are. These all agree on their stature, repeatedly and consistently describing it at seven feet with no indication of a distinction existing between males and females - at times clearly implied to be at the same height. May I then ask why this has earned it a note labeling it as "ambiguous" material? I would love to know the reasons behind that!

I assumed, that since the lore does not differentiate between the height of the two genders, we shouldn't either. If at worst we want to be finicky with gender specifications though, I wouldn't be opposed to having only night elves listed at seven feet, with no mention of either gender. That may even be the most accurate approach. —Calevarn (talk) 13:05, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Bit late with my response, apologies for that, but you took my wording a little too seriously. Because I've spent so much time on cleaning up the height page for ...years now, yikes, of weird and strange sources like good ol' BradyGames and their awful height chart, I'm personally rather hesitant to include heights in the "official lore height" section if the heights in question don't have specific values attached to them. For example, had your sources at some point mentioned something along the lines of "The night elven forces—whose females on average stood at seven feet while the males barely exceeded them at seven feet and two inches—were towered over by the demonic felguard at their imposing nine feet." then I would 110% agree to add it and would gladly do so myself.

But due to the whole generalisation across the entire race and genders, which I labelled as ambiguous because chances are there's sexual dimorphism (which the player models suggest) placing them at different averages, I was personally iffy about seeing it at first. We don't know any specifics about neither the males nor females from these novels, but like I commented, they go hand-in-hand with the player model heights at the end of the day. Something along the lines of: "7' average across the entire race, though in general females are closer to 6'9" while males are closer to 7'2" because of sexual dimorphism but it evens out at 7'... yada yada."

Either way, I like the phrasing you went with so I'm happy to leave it where it's at. —Mattalari (talk) 08:47, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

No worries, Matt, I can see you've worked hard on this page, it really shows!

The reason why I asked was because I found myself a little confused by what exactly would cause these sources to be considered ambiguous, so I thank you for explaining your mindset.

To me the conclusion seemed obvious, 7' is the one value constantly reiterated on night elf height, a rather specific number too. When both male and female night elves are together (such as when Cenarius comes upon Tyrande, Illidan and Malfurion) 7' is again the broad number used. If there was a relevant case of sexual dimorphism, it might have been highlighted. This is also corroborated by other citations:

• "[Malfurion] still stood as tall as any of his people—roughly seven feet."

Not any of the men, but any of the people. Though alas, it indeed never addresses either gender in particular or explicitly, leaving this under implication.

I understand why that may be the subject of personal interpretation, I myself was uncertain on how to insert these values into the chart, but I'm glad we were quick to reach an agreement. I'll keep your response in mind for future edits! —Calevarn (talk) 13:04, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Something that struck me though is that sure, the novel does say everyone is at or around 7', but in artwork of night elves we see that males are clearly taller than females, even artwork of Malfurion and Tyrande, so saying they're both 7' like their people is inherently wrong and just a massive generalisation, which is also why I don't like how broadly it refers to night elf height. But y'know, the median of night elf height is 7' if females average 6'9" and males average 7'3" so perhaps that is the way to interpret it lol.

As an example, this artwork is more recent (thus more official yada yada) and Malfurion is clearly not 7' if Tyrande is also 7' according to <insert novel>. ...in fact, never-fucking-mind, someone clearly used in-game racial leader sizes for reference ahahah. Now, obviously this image wasn't made for height comparison in mind but this is hilarious to me anyway, anyone who sees this, please don't use it as a reference, it's concept art... —Mattalari (talk) 15:40, 7 April 2021 (UTC)