Talk:Narsilla Keensight

For reference: "an old blood elf contact from the Uncrowned, had no loyalties to the Horde or Alliance, but only to gold, which Mathias provided her regularly." Based on this, and the treatment of Valeera who is said to be in service to House Wrynn, Narsilla shouldn't have Alliance icon. -- Mordecay (talk) 15:39, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

She is referred to repeatedly as an agent, given SI:7 resources and then later this entire operation is referred to as the work of "Stormwind Intelligence". Unlike Valeera, who is essentially just a bodyguard, Narsilla is in no uncertain terms, multiple times, referred to as a member of SI:7. These two are not the same issue, even if Narsilla is only a member for the fat paycheck, she's still a member of an Alliance / Stormwind organization. Valeera is not a member of anything, she's just a blood elf that helps the Wrynns. --Berenal (talk) 15:44, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, the book implies the SI:7, but she directly isn't called a SI:7 member, only as Mathias' agent, and then there is the Stormwind Intelligence work reference when responding to Flynn's "we" comment. However, while working for Shaw, it also clearly states that she is not Alliance or Horde, so we shouldn't ignore that and tag her as Alliance based on conjectures. Just stick with what the book says. -- Mordecay (talk) 16:25, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I've made an edit to the page that avoids this debate of ally or neutral, but just tries to make the text more clear. It now reads that Shaw noted her love of gold (rather than an anonymous observer, as it was previously written). I've also put her spying on the faciton leaders into a separate paragraph, and shortenned the text to only focus on her work and not what other people do with it. Meanwhile... when it comes to ally vs neutral, I personally could see it going either way. I think its different if she's regularly receiving gold versus a one-time deal, so I might lean closer toward Berenal's interpretation. But on the other hand, in a game where race determines faction, I already think its significant to flag her as neutral instead of horde. DDC (talk) 16:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Agent is referential to SI:7. As literally every one of Shaw's past agents have been. You're grasping at straws. In addition, every mercenary we have ever had that is affiliated with the alliance or horde has had the alliance or horde tag put on them depending on what faction they're put to. So even if we were going off the idea she's mercenary, she's a mercenary working for the alliance. I am entirely sticking to what the book says here, she's referred to on multiple occasions as an agent in reference to operations by SI7. You don't have any reference for her being an independent agent. By this logic of what their personal beliefs are, we need to swap Calia back to neutral because she doesn't want to be affiliated with the alliance or horde, just to help the forsaken. Keensight is working as an SI:7 agent in context of Shaw's conversation with Flynn where he also talks just a moment prior of being Spymaster and his job. There's abundant context to what he's talking about in the book that you're ignoring for whatever reason. We do not need him to directly say, word for word, "yes she is an SI:7 agent 100% absolutely an SI:7 agent", when he's in clear context of his conversation talking about his job as Spymaster of SI:7 and his agents--Berenal (talk) 16:52, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

"You don't have any reference for her being an independent agent." The first sentence posted here literally states this. Even though she works for Mathias, she is not part of the Alliance or Horde, that's what the book says and that's why the Alliance icon shouldn't be there. I read the part twice, and it doesn't corroborate to your conjecture about her being an Alliance member. -- Mordecay (talk) 17:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

All right folks, please take a deep breath and remember this is only a fictional character about a disappointing game series :p Xporc (talk) 17:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

The entire context of the conversation they're talking about is shortly after Mathias mentions he is Spymaster. He then talks about his agents embedded in the Horde. Why would Mathias, the spymaster of SI:7, also independently keep agents without any context? He later then explains their mission they're on is one of Stormwind Intelligence. The entire passage is phrased in Shaw's job. He even has a dossier for Krezzek, the other mentioned spy. Everything here is pointing to SI:7, and even in the context of what you mentioned it does not state she is not working for SI:7. **Once again**, we have mercenaries listed under the factions they are employed by, even though he refers to her as one of his agents implicitly so we're past that point. Nothing here points to an independent tag, one you have repeatedly put up now despite this conversation being on going and have now broken the three edit rule to sustain. Until this conversation is completed, please do not put it back up, this isn't a matter decided by your opinion alone; the original information is supposed to stay up until we can rectify which is in the right, your newer edition does not take precedence. --Berenal (talk) 17:57, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't feel either of you are treating each other entirely fairly. Nevertheless, to focus on the issue at hand, I think it would help to rephrase the question: "How should the faction be determined for a mercenary with limited backstory?" DDC (talk) 18:16, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I am not saying she is not working with SI:7, I said that it is implied to be the case in the second response. What I am saying is that she shouldn't have the Alliance icon since the book says that she has no loyalty for the Alliance / Horde (basically, she can be tagged as SI:7, but without the Alliance icon). I also think that conjectures shouldn't be present during such discussions in the first place, but facts should take precedence. Since the book says that she has no loyalty to Alliance, then adding Alliance icon would be the conjecture and not a fact. -- Mordecay (talk) 18:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

We are discussing facts, the fact is that she is currently employed as an agent of the SI:7. That's an alliance organization and she is working for Stormwind. Faction boilers are for what faction they are affiliated with, which in this case is the Alliance. Just as we have recently given Calia the Horde marker despite the fact she doesn't seem too eager about it and has to even be reminded of her new alliegeance by Voss in the new book concerning the Derek thing. I get you're disagreeing with me but this is a matter of the two of us disagreeing, not a situation of 'my opinion is the right one', we're here to discuss that and find the correct placement. As for what DDC pointed out, previous mercenaries have had their faction tag put on them if they are working for the Alliance / Horde. She might not care about the alliance, but she is working for them through the SI:7. Not everyone in both factions are totally 'For the Alliance/Horde', they just work with whoever pays them. Hell, look at Gallywix, he was a Horde faction leader and had multiple times said he didn't have conceptual loyalty to it, and eventually ends up abandoning it all together. --Berenal (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

In a few days I'm going to read the book, and come back when I've formulated my own opinion. But from what little I've seen (including reading the just page where Shaw mentions this character), I am leaning toward an alliance affiliation based on Berenal's point that other mercinaries have had the faction tag assigned accordingly based on who they work for at the time. If we put Keensight to neutral, then it would call into question those other pages. DDC (talk) 19:06, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

"she is working for Stormwind" The book states she is working for Mathias. She working for Stormwind, while it makes sense, is still just conjecture and not a fact stated in the book and would not warrant an Alliance icon.

"Faction boilers are for what faction they are affiliated with, which in this case is the Alliance" Narsilla is explicitly stated to not be loyal to Alliance.

"she doesn't seem too eager about it and has to even be reminded of her new alliegeance by Voss concerning the Derek thing." Calia had to be reminded of her allegiance by Voss during the Derek mention? Which sentence do you refer to? Or do you mean Talanji? Anyway, in the case of Calia and Derek, both are referred to as Horde in the book.

Which mercenaries? Are any of them explicitly stated to not be loyal to one faction and still have that faction's icon? -- Mordecay (talk) 19:11, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I still don't think she needs the Alliance icon. Her affiliation - SI:7 should be enough, and it is respectful to what the book says about her loyalty. -- Mordecay (talk) 19:11, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Sometimes when two parties cannot agree the best thing to do is find a neutral ground or not give anything at all. In this case the solution would simply be to remove the tag as a whole and let people decide. It's a trivial matter in the end though, so no need to fight for this. --Ryon21 (talk) 21:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. This character is so minor that it's not really worth having a giant argument over her, IMO. It's not mandatory for NPC boxes to have a faction tag, so better to just get rid of it if there's ambiguity. -- DeludedTroll (talk • contribs) 01:00, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm willing to agree to that as a concession personally. --Berenal (talk) 03:56, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. -- Mordecay (talk) 08:35, 19 July 2020 (UTC)