Talk:List of paladins

Garithos

You sure Garithos was a pally ? He's said to be a "Black Knight" in teh War3, and he has Moutain King abilities ...--Kirochi (talk) 15:48, 24 September 2006 (EDT)

I'd say Garithos is a warrior, although the paladin + horse thing makes it look.. paladinish. Tinker

He had the holy light spell, unique to Paladins. Maybe a Dwarf Paladin would you say? Arthas and Rivendare are classified as alive because they never died. As stated in their respective pages they stopped to be paladin and became death knight when they turned to the Lich King, wielding their runeblades. Ashbringer and Barthilas where killed by scourge and raised as Death knight. That's the difference. What about of adding all death knights? -- User:N'Nanz 15:57, 24 September 2006 (EDT)

How ironical ! Garithos being compared to a Dwarven paladin !! He'd have killed all his army not to hear this. And, for the horse, it rather looks knightish.

I didn't know Rivendare willingly turned to the Lich king and was still alive, but I got nothing to say about Arthas.

The reason why the other Death Knights ain't classified here is maybe that we don't have any lore about them ... despite the other totally new characters in the Paladin section ... Maybe bosses are more important than NPCs, and so we gotta think more before adding them here ?--Kirochi (talk) 16:07, 24 September 2006 (EDT)

Garithos had Devotion Aura too... Yes, Garithos as a dwarf (a brainless, idiot, lout dwarf) is funny :) The canonical definition of Death Knight is Paladin that turned to the Lich King wielding a runeblade like Arthas, Rivendare and in some ways Darkreaver do. What to do with Aurius and Aurrius? Lunar Falls describes Aurrius the Pure (the description is different to the one on wowwiki) but says nothing about Aurrius. I took their nicks from Warcraft III paladins' random names. Are they the same person? Or Aurius is the paladin described in the article Aurrius and Aurius is the Paladin that followed Jaina? --User:N'Nanz

I have the same opinion of Kirochi about adding Death Knights that haven't lore about being paladins. In any case I think we have to remove Highlord Mograine because in life he was not a paladin but a warrior since the Dreadnaugh Battlegear was originally made for him. --N'Nanz 15:04, 13 October 2006

Next week I'm going to create a new section in this articles about catalogueing Famous Draenei paladins under the title Vindicator that is the title given to Draenei Paladin, just like Blood elf paladin are addressed as Blood Knight. What are your opinions? --N'Nanz 13:25, 12 November 2006

Well, I dunno. I think "Paladin" just works for Blood Knights too, but whatever. More information can't be that bad.--K ) (talk) 08:40, 12 November 2006 (EST)

Garithos was a Dark Knight, not a paladin. His abilities were actually a mix-match of skills from several different classes. But he was most definitely intended to be black knight class, as is listed on his information.Baggins 11:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

If we say that Garithos was a pally for just having Devotion Aura (let's say he was just devoted) and Holy Light (ironical a Dark knight has HOLY light) than he IS a Dwarf (he also had Avatar User:Eity

Maybe a few NPCs are not Pallies

I'm not sure if Commander Haephus Stonewall and Reginald Windsor are to be included. Maybe they are respectively a hunter and a warrior. Any other? N'Nanz 09:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Famous Paladins

This seems to have gone beyond famous paladins to listing every single paladin in the world... It should be renamed, or cut back...Baggins 10:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

->I completely agree with that, the idea that most of the paladins on the list are famous is absurd. and it should be noted as well that some of those characters are not actually paladins be class, but rather by order, and some are not paladins by order but rather have the powers of the class. and the blood knights are NOT paladins. they ought to have another page.--Cyraes 00:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Also i found you included Varen the Reclaimer on the blood knight section,i just want to ask where did u get the idees since he doesn't even have mana in the game?Also i found a mob in Netherstorm on wowhead Malevus the Mad http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=20790 she wears a scryer tabard and wears paladin armor so i think she should be mentioned as a former Scryer BK (Marakanis)

mmm...You are right. I looked at his shoulderguars as part of a paladin set but I wrong the set, it's a warrior set. N'Nanz 09:20, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Scourge section

What about if we extend the Scourge section and rename it as Former Paladins? In truth Eldritch Deathlord was not part of the Scourge and in this way we can include for example Exarch Malaadar and why not Nobundo. I'm going to change the article in 2 hours. --N'Nanz 15:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Supreme Commander

Who is the Supreme Commander of the Paladins?(SmashingPumpkins1 08:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC))

By the way what are Commander feats, which is mentioned in the epic paladin warrior page?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 11:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge

Could we get a merge or partial merge of the ex-paladin section at least from this page to the page on ex-paladin? It is redundant and conflicting.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 10:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

No, ex-paladins are listed on the page for lore purposes. Secondly, generally speaking things that are presumed to be ex-paladins probably shouldn't be on the list. Only characters that are said to be ex-paladins, and fall under the conditions, i.e. chose to leave the light, and chose to do bad deeds.Baggins (talk) 10:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay so we are going to leave redundant information on two pages instead of having one, or at least two, distinct pages.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 10:37, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

We can remove the list on ex-paladin and adding a link to this page as per the articles paladin and Blood Knight. What about? --N'Nanz (talk) 10:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Generally speaking this page could have the title "former paladins", since not all former paladins are ex-paladins. the definition for an ex-paladin is very specific.Baggins (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it is confusing with a page called famous paladins, and in that list is a section called ex-paladins. Then there is another page called ex-paladins. Not only that, the two lists don't even match.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 10:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

In the rpg ex-paladin is a sub-type of the main paladin class, a kinda psuedo class. It gets referenced as its own class on various characters and enemies in the RPG, but its technically just a penalized paladin, blocked from most abilities. The barbarian class has a similar rule/class change called the Ex-barbarian. Which is a barbarian that becomes too lawful, moving away from chaos and loses certain chaotic abilities.

The reason why the lists don't match is because people keep on just adding anything without looking at the definitions of ex-paladin.Baggins (talk) 11:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, want them to both match.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 11:05, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

FFA the list does match if not for Barthilas who is the only one that became somethink comepletely different from a paladin and second the reason because the list of ex-paladin in the article List of Paladins comprehends all that character is that once that section was called "Former-paladins". I don't recall why or who changed it... --N'Nanz (talk) 11:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Knights of the Silver Hand=Paladins?

I don't agree with this classification. Thus draenei vindicators are knights of the Silver Hand? --N'Nanz (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest splitting it into organization. Knights of the Silver Hand, Hand of Argus, and Blood Knights. The definition of vindicator is a bit different now...Baggins (talk) 02:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I see no utilility in this splitting since the affiliation is already showed... --N'Nanz (talk) 07:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I can say for one reason it was getting very hard to read, overly long, and organizational information is more important than merely the class. Besides Blood Knights was already the order, and paladins exist within the Blood Knights if one follows the quest lore. Blood Elf paladins join the order around level 12 or so. If it was intended to be a split of Horde vs Alliance, it lost that the moment neutral or independent factions such as those from the Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn, Aldor or Shattered Sun Offensive were added to it. Merely being human, dwarf, or draenei does not make one "Alliance", and merely being blood elf doesn't make one "Horde".Baggins (talk) 08:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't done as a Alliance vs Horde classification. In fact the affiliation section shows the Alliance (or another sub-faction related to it) per paladins within the Alliance or another faction. I see nowhere it's told they are all Alliance friendly. Take for example Raleigh the Devout. He is a paladin that is officially affiliated with the Scarlets but for some reason he is a anti-scarlet and in truth his loyalty resides within the Alliance. For this reason he is classified as "Scarlet Crusade/Alliance". And what's the source that makes every Draenei Paladin affiliated with the Hand of Argus!? And the ones affiliated with the Aldor or the Sha'tar? No sources about it. The old classification Paladin/Blood Knight/Former Paladin was far better. --N'Nanz (talk) 08:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

That's the problem, things from Independent organizations should be in their own sections. Also the problem with Blood Knight is similar to the problem of using "Vindicator". Paladins can become Vindicators and Blood Knights. But all are Paladins. If the page was following a true pattern, then either the page should have been split by Knights of the Silver Hand, Vindicators, and Blood Knights. But there are accuracy issues there. Alternatively they could have all ben put under the same category and all just called "Paladins". To be honest the affiliation section could be done away with, or alternatively it could just be used to expand on characters that have more than one allegience. But there are issues any direction taken.Baggins (talk) 08:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

This isn't true because we know from quests that the title paladin is taken like a disparaging by blood knight (the quest when you have to estinguish the holy flame in Stratholme) and the title Blood Knight is taken as an honorific. On the other hand we don't know about the title vindicator only that some draenei paladin are called as such but they remain always paladin (as are called in the first quests for draenei paladins). Thus the differentiation paladin/blood knight. A paladin (Draenei-Dwarf-Human-Blood Elf) that has lost his path becomes somethink other thus the third section as former-paladin . --N'Nanz (talk) 08:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a conflict possibly. Blood elf paladins start out as paladins, from the very first quests as paladins, very similar to the draenei, and take on the title Blood Knight around the 12th level, or rather "Blood Knight Initate" iirc.Baggins (talk) 08:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The point is not where or when you take up to be a blood knight. The point is that it's different being a paladin from being a blood knight. On the other hand (the Silver one :-p) we know that a human or a dwarf paladin is the same as a draenei paladin independently from the organization you are in or the title you carry. It's up to your faith in the light... --N'Nanz (talk) 08:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem I see here is the possible assumption that "all" Blood Knights are disparaged by the term "paladin", from an assumption based on one character's complains of the term. Yet the term is used by other characters in earlier quests, who don't seem to take it as an insult. As well as quests where the NPC states what class you are playing. Differnet non-neutral povs and all could be an issue...

As for Argent Dawn and Scarlet Crusade paladins if they remain paladins, they are neither "former paladins" or "ex-paladins" but rather they are just "heretics of the Holy Light". According to the RPG these paladins tend to develop powers different than paladins of Silver Hand. Especially for the Scarlet paladins.Baggins (talk) 08:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The character that today uses paladin as a disparaging is the Master blood knight and once it was the blood knight Matriarch that depicted paladin as such. It's the same as: "George Bush says Osama Bin Laden is a bad guy but not all Americans agree." --N'Nanz (talk) 09:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh please don't exagerate and don't bring in politics. It might be closer to saying the term "cop" is dispariging to to some police officers, but not all officers take offense from "cop".Baggins (talk) 09:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I was only taking as an example where the leader of an organization express the think of many other people. However what about to make the page less dispersive but at the same time more readible? I was thinking somethink like "Alliance paladins-Horde blood Knights-Other organization-Former-paladins". This way the "other organization" section should include Aldor-Scryers-Shattered Sun Offensive-Sha'tar-Scarlet Crusade-Argent Dawn-Brotherhood of the Light. --N'Nanz (talk) 09:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

What about if we change the Main page as:

Portal:Main

Welcome to WoWWiki the free Warcraft universe info source anyone can edit (if Baggins agrees)

?--N'Nanz (talk) 08:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Warchiefthrall (talk) 10:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

This article becomes more ugly with every edit he makes. --N'Nanz (talk) 11:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Master of the Light NPCs

The 5 Paladins that spawn when you destroy the flame. I thought they were Ghosts? They are listed as "Alive" on the list. Can a bookkeeper look into this? --Invin Dranoel (talk) 04:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hand of Argus

As N'Nanz points out (but overzealously so), are all draenei paladins members of the Hand of Argus? Kirkburn  talk  contr 14:38, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Overzealously because I tried to talk about it without answers or other form of discussion. However I revert it because the article is discriminating toward other organizations. Baggings wrote it from the Silver Hand (and Dark Faction) point of view without impartiality. You can read upward why I consider this article ugly. --N'Nanz (talk) 17:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

New paladin organizational pages

This page concept is starting to go towards being either a bloated mess, or a lumped together mess. By seperating the article into seperate organizations it made it easier to link to sections from each of the organization pages. However, now ingame you can find a character that may belong to 2-3 different organizations depending which area in the game, or had past membership in lore. Its not handy to repeat the same names across several sections of the page.

Lumping all the paladins into one super group is not an option either. Since its very hard to follow, and will continuously grow as more npcs are added into the game, or other lore. Its also not possible to link to sections form organization pages that way.

In order to keep things easily organized, but avoid the page becoming bloated, this page should become a disambig to seperate spinout pages, or sections of new spinout pages, named by organization.

I.E. List of Blood Knights, List of Draenei paladins. List of Knights of the Silver Hand. List of Argent Crusade paladins. List of Argent Dawn paladins, List of Scarlet Crusade paladins, List of Scarlet Onslaught paladins, etc, etc.. or variations thereof.

Seperate pages like this will still allow linking from other pages, but also clean up this page, and also keep track of various historical institutions. It will allow for overall better cross linking of the pages to other related pages.Baggins (talk) 19:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

And what to do with paladins that are or have been in different organization? I take as example Abbendis , the daughter. She was Silver Hand (old hillsbrad), Scarlet Crusade (Tyr's Hand), Scarlet Onslaught (New Earthglen). Does she have to be mentioned in every page? I find this solution dumb however I'm in to solve the problem because I don't like how this page has becomed. --N'Nanz (talk) 09:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of using this page as a disambiguation but I don't the separation per organization. What about a classification per race? An individual can shift between organizations but his race is always the same. This way we should have only 4 list of <race> paladins ATM. A classification per organization means we have to create at least 8 pages. --N'Nanz (talk) 09:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

By race is too broad, and doesn't allow for precise cross referencing. Actually its a good idea to have characters who may belong to several organizations to be listed on each seperate organizational page. It serves the wikipedia purpose of cross referencing, it also gives a clear picture of the history of the organization. We don't simply remove information, we show historical organization lists. Also these lists will be linked to from their respective organization pages as well, allowing for more precise cross referencing.

Also one must think ahead to various paladins introducted in future spinoff material set in different eras.Baggins (talk) 09:56, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm applying SQL and I can say race is the primary key for this table (sorry, computer engineering makes me insane :p ). On the contrary we can keep better historical information. eg:

Human paladins

Name	Title/Agnomen	Role	Formerly	Currently	Status
Abbendis	High General	Leader of New Hearthglen, Dragonblight	Silver Hand, Scarlet Crusade	Scarlet Onslaught	Alive

--N'Nanz (talk) 10:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The way to look at it is historical listing page. If the organization is obselete, then there is no reason to point out what happened to the organization after it went obselete. That's what each main organization history page is for. Its a snapshot in time mainly pointing out the original membership of that organization. In this way we wouldn't even have to worry about "former paladin or ex-paladin" section either. That would be left to its own page.

I'd suggest you take a look at the Scarlet Crusade member lists for example. We show everyone who was ever a member, even if they left the organization at some point. We also have this for other organization pages as well. The only difference is that these spinout pages will be more focused on individual classes within the organization, and not the entire organization.Baggins (talk) 10:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Now, within List of draenei paladins how to place Justinius the Harbinger, Kaylaan the Lost, Exarch Maladaar, Farseer Nobundo and all other draenei not within the Hand of Argus? --N'Nanz (talk) 10:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Do we know if they were ever affiliated with Hand of Argus or any other organizations? If organization not known, put them in a section called "Other" for now.Baggins (talk) 10:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of splitting by organization - I really don't see that repeating members would be a problem - as long as there's a space to say "this person moved to x", so you'd know they were not currently part of it. As for those without apparent organizations - well, that would be an organization in itself. (Also, argh, edit conflicts) Kirkburn  talk  contr 10:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I've been using "affiliation (other)" section and marking other affiliations with "former" or "current", plus noting if the organization is obselete in the intro paragraph.Baggins (talk) 10:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem is not how many times a paladin is repeated, the problem is how many "list of x paladins" pages there are... --N'Nanz (talk) 10:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Which isn't a problem from an administration standpoint. 1. We have unlimited space, so no problem there. 2. These pages are cross linked to individual lore history pages as well. 3. We allow as many pages are as needed to prevent bloating, and keep topics of the page concise.Baggins (talk) 11:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

We can assume every Alliance paladin (but draenei) is a knight of the Silver Hand, there isn't other mean to become one, right? thus dwarf and human paladin can be classified as Silver Hand?--N'Nanz (talk) 11:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)