Talk:Illusionist

Is this page

specifically for illusionists who use arcane-based illusions? Is the notable illusion spell section of this page specifically for arcane-based illusion spells? If so, I'll gladly remove the Eye of Kilrogg spell from the list.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 19:44, 6 May 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

The page's lore is about the Arcane School of Illusion. As in the case of Warlocks and Necromancers, I am sure that other magical disciplines, powered by non-arcane magical sources, can achieve similar or comparable results to the arcane Illusion school. But we have no evidence that such disciplines have been categorized and studied as arcane magic was. Maybe warlocks have a completely different scheme for their arts. Though I agree that, if we applied the arcane categories to all the magical disciplines, Eye of Kilrogg would be both an Illusion and a Divination spell. Cemotucu (talk contribs) 08:07, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

1) I wasn't told that this page's lore is solely about the arcane school of illusion >.>, perhaps creating a separate page for fel-based illusions would be prudent? I personally don't believe creating a separate page for fel-based illusions is necessary...

2) I still don't understand why you're suggesting that all warlocks aren't necromancers.

3a) It simply does not matter if such "discplines" haven't been categorized and studied as arcane magic was because the arts achievable through arcane magic can be achieved through non-arcane magics. Those who use fel magic for necromancy are necromancers by definition. A warlock may not identify himself/herself as a necromancer but if he/she uses fel magic for necromancy then by definition that warlock is a necromancer, a practitioner of necromancy.

3b) Conjuration was called a School of Arcane magic. Conjuration is the study and practice of SUMMONING things. Conjurers summon things. Conjurers, by definition, are summoners. There were warlocks who were referred to as summoners. The warlock Wilfred Fizzlebang even called himself a summoner. Those warlocks, by definition, are conjurers. It doesn't matter if those warlocks don't identify themselves as summoners/conjurers, if you state that those who use fel magic to summon things aren't conjurers/summoners you are ignoring the very definition of the term conjuration.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 17:26, 16 May 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

2/3a) Yes, in general a necromancer is anyone who performs necromancy, but Blizzard has deemed this not to be the case for "Necromancers" in Warcraft. Warlocks can perform necromancy, but that doesn't make them "Necromancers". It's like an official title for the discipline/class/profession instead of a generic term. Like "gods" in Warcraft are whomever Blizzard decides to label as a "god" despite whatever characteristics "non-deities" might have in common with actual "gods". If Blizzard labels someone as a "Necromancer", then they are one. If not, then they are not, despite whatever necromantic powers they may wield.

3b) Different kind of summoning. Conjuration "summoning" is creating things. Summoning by transport from another location (a la portal) is Transmutation. At least according to the in-game WoW books. This was muddled in WC1, with Conjurers using both the Transmutation type of summoning (scorpions) and the Conjuration type of summoning (water elementals). --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

1) A necromancer is a practitioner of necromancy and all warlocks practice necromancy. I understand perfectly that there is a difference between being able to do something and actually doing something, but do you understand that you can't change the fact that all warlocks do practice necromancy? There is no changing the fact that all warlocks cast shadow bolts and curses/diseases and manipulate souls. Edit: Why was necromantic magic stated to extend to the shadow bolt spell (a spell that manifests as a skull, which is a "dead" thing) anyways? Does the shadow bolt spell involve sending a ghost/apparition (that manifests as a skull) to hit someone or sending an actual skull created from demonic energy to hit someone? Why did Jandice teach illusions in a school for necromancy? What does creating apparitions (that manifest as dead things) have to do with necromancy? Is there a connection between necromancy and illusion? Can necromancy be achieved through illusion? If the eye of kilroggs are apparitions are they demonic ghosts given the "illusion of life" or are they ghost-like demons? I'm pretty sure necromancy extends to controlling ghosts and if the eye of kilroggs aren't ghosts but ghost-like demons well...they manifest as a "dead thing" and controlling dead things is what necromancy extends to.

2) Conjuration "summoning" is creating things, including creating portals mate.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 20:01, 16 May 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

1) As the general term "necromancer" means practitioner of necromancer, yes. But Blizzard has deemed this not to apply to Warcraft. Just practicing necromancy is not enough to be a "Necromancer." A "Necromancer" is whomever Blizzard deems to be one, regardless of how much necromancy they practice.

2) Blizzard split portal creation off into Transmutation as it bends space to eliminate the distance between two points. You can conjure things like the physical stabilizing structure around a portal (i.e. Demonic Gateways), but the portal itself is not an object, it's just a hole in space. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 00:44, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

There is no changing the definition of Necromancer mate, you can't practice necromancy without being a necromancer. What do you mean when you state that practicing necromancy isn't enough to be "a Necromancer"? What is Blizzard's definition of a "Necromancer"? Could it be a practitioner of necromancy? If practicing necromancy is not enough to be a "Necromancer" then what is?

2) By creating portals I've meant the physical structure of the portal. The term conjure/summon can be used to describe the action of conjuring/summoning magical energies.VisionOfPerfection (talk) 01:18, 17 May 2015 (UTC)VisionPerfection

1) It's a specific discipline/class/profession. Blizzard never gave a criteria for what qualifies someone to be an actual "Necromancer" in Warcraft, just that it's not so simple as practicing necromancy. Think of it like a special necromancy club and "Necromancer" is a title that only Blizzard can bestow. Like the "Apothecary" title. Any alchemist making healing potions is technically an apothecary. But you need special standing with the Royal Apothecary Society to be an actual "Apothecary".

2) Conjuration is only noted to be for creatures and objects. Conjuring/summoning magical energies would fall under Evocation. The Evocation school is not officially defined, but it is mentioned by name and the Evocation spell gathers energy. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 02:11, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

1) But "necromancer" isn't a profession separate of another profession, it's merely a branch of a profession. I don't believe Blizzard Devs have to point out if someone is a necromancer if that someone is known to practice necromancy.

2) Yes, conjuring/summoning magical energies would fall under Evocation, I'm just stating that the term summon/conjure CAN be used to described the action of conjuring/summoning magical energiesVisionOfPerfection (talk) 02:44, 17 May 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection