Talk:Arcane

Old discussion

Oke.. WowWiki just HAS to start ignoring case... its just silly! ;)

See Arcane Magic

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Jemimus 17:29, 14 Jul 2005 (EDT)

Arrogant

I'm sorry, but aren't Jaina, Rhonin, Khadgar, and Velen all very powerful mages who aren't arrogant or corrupted? Lckyluke372 01:49, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, this needs some NPOV re-writing. - Fearless Son 23:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I think Jaina could be discribed as arrogant to an extent, you'd have to be to mouth off to Archimonde the way she did. Rhonin has had the occasional moment where he felt corurption and temptaition but managed to resist. Khadar had a momnet or two of arrogance in the last guardian but was more often than not humbled by Medivh. And Velen is naturally cautious.Tweak the Whacked 23:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that Jaina was any more or less arrogant than Thrall or Malfurion Stormrage, and for all we know she could just have been "talking tough" to him. - Fearless Son 19:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I completely disagree with the needing NPOV revision. Firstly the article is taken nearly verbatim from official sources. That right there is enough. Secondly it is completely accurate. power breeds arrogance. The fact that Jaina, Rhonin, Khadgar, and Velen are not arrogant is the reason their names are known to us, unlike random kirin tor mage #41. Those four, and a few others, have not fallen victim to arrogance which is why they have selfishly performed acts of greater good, making them well known. Most old wizards become stuborn and arrogant. The heros meantioned are the exception to the rule, a rule which often holds true.Warthok Talk Contribs 22:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I know this is an article about Arcane more then it is about the destruction of the Sunwell, but Blizzard themselves tell a different story of this. Where is the mention of the dragon flights, of Deathwings creation, of Cenaris' involvement, Illidans brother Malfurion? Lots of holes for an apparently "accurate" account. King-Kodiak (talk) 19:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It is accurate. It's an article about Arcane magic, theres no need to get off on too many tangents. Keep it simple.Warthok Talk Contribs 20:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Corrupting properties stem from old gods?

From some books, like the one about the nightmare (can't recall name) it's likely an old god is/was, at least at some point, at maelstrom's/well of eternity's location, for example soon before the sundering. And we know from Brann that the Rift (the hole left by the well, under the maelstrom) still emits a lot of arcane energy, likely still being the main source of it as the WoE inside it was before. If an Old God is swimming in it, i can see why arcane corrupts. And that would also add some sense to Late Malygos' case, only him and deathwing have gone nuts so far (Nozdormu hasn't yet, although he will and travel back here), and deathwing's element was surrounding Old Gods, so the aforementioned theory is more likely the reason than a weak-ishly minded Aspect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xhosant (talk · contr). 17:35, 7 November 2011

Demonic

Can Arcane magic be demonic? The term demonic can describe something relating to demons, so would arcane magic technically be demonic if its used to summon and control demons?VisionOfPerfection (talk) 19:19, 9 November 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

No. Saying arcane is demonic is sub-setting arcane as a form of demonic magic, when arcane is much more broad than that and most spells have nothing to do with demons. Demonic spells can certainly use arcane magic, just like it can use fel magic. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 19:46, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Why wouldn't it be a form of demonic magic though? And how can you be sure most, if not all, spells have nothing to do with demons? Isn't arcane energy linked/connected to the Nether, which is the residence of demons? Wouldn't it be possible to hear the voices of demons when casting arcane spells or something? Anyways, stating arcane magic can't be demonic is odd simply due to the fact that it CAN relate to demons if its used to summon and control demons. feel me? =O I'm willingly to accept the fact that arcane magic can be used to summon and control demons without being demonic if Blizzard says so, but technically it can be considered demonic right?VisionOfPerfection (talk) 01:12, 10 November 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

While arcane exists in the Nether, it is also a natural part of worlds, flowing through ley lines and empowering life. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 02:44, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Right, arcane exists in the Nether, but clearly fel exists in the Nether too (despite whatever Loreology believes) and can empower life despite being called destructive (fel can be used to transfer life/souls, grant Immortality, etc.). As fel is created from burning life it seems like life itself is part demonic (containing demonic energy), it would definitely contain something used in the creation of fel, which means that it's just as a natural part of worlds too. I know fel was called unnatural but how (and why) would fel be any less natural than arcane?VisionOfPerfection (talk) 05:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)VisionOfPerfection

Necromancy

The section "Schools of arcane magic" is specifically about how the Kirin Tor in-universe divides the magical arts. This is described at the beginning of the section. Chronicle doesn't retcon that, as it is out-of-universe information. There is also the fact that the intro refers them to as schools of "eldritch arts", meaning that "arcane" isn't used as the literal cosmic force, but as the adjective: mysterious. The intro also notes that these schools can be used through multiple sources of power/types of magic. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

It says "Schools of Arcane magic", Necromancy is no longer Arcane magic but Death magic as of Chronicle. The book itself describes it well:

"Necromantic magic has many functions beyond simply raising the dead. Masters of this tainted field of magic can conjure festering diseases, harness the shadows into bolts of incendiary energy, and chill the living with the power of death. Necromancy can also be used to reconstruct the flesh of undead creatures, allowing them to function again even after the foul monsters have been destroyed.

The former archmage Kel'Thuzad is perhaps the most notable example of a modern necromancer. He greatly contributed to the initial spread of the Scourge and the fall of Lordaeron. Now, Kel'Thuzad reigns as a lich from the floating citadel of Naxxramas."

This here described is purely Necromantic magic and has nothing to do with the Arcane which, and this is the relevant part, this article is about. However if you really insist I could get behind leaving it here and adding a note that says that necromancy is not arcane magic, but that for some reason the magi of the kirin tor still consider it as arcane magic.. though it sounds a bit unlikely to me. -- ShellShockLive (talk) 17:55, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if we should keep it in the name of flavor lore or just leave it is at is right now, a footnote. Xporc (talk) 18:09, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

This is how the Kirin Tor describes the field of magic. It's not talking about the magical energy itself, which the intro states the arcane/eldritch arts can draw upon different types. The Kirin Tor books aren't talking exclusively about arcane energy. Mages can manipulate elemental and fel energies which aren't arcane energy. Even these books themselves (Abjuration and Conjuration) state they are using elemental energies. Necromancy is an art using necromantic energy. And again, the context with which these books are using "Arcane Magic" is not as arcane the energy, they are using it as an adjective as indicated by the intro saying these are the "eldritch arts". These are arts, referenced repeatedly throughout the other books in the series. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your developping. This brings two points of views :

- we interpret the books like you did : you thus understand that it is extremely misleading to name a section after a book titled "the schools of arcane magic" in which "arcane" as you say does not mean "arcane magic" at all, in the article about arcane the magic. If this book/section is about magic in general (and thus elemental magic and so on) and not just arcane magic as you say, then it shouldn't be in this article at all, but in the Kirin Tor article or maybe the Mage article or the Magic article, since it's about magic in general and not about arcane magic.

- we take the books literally, as written, without interpretation : the book named "the schools of arcane magic" literally describes the schools of "arcane", the type of magic, among which "abjuration"/"conjuration" (who also by the way use a bit of elemental magic but this is no news since mages of the kirin tor do mix "arcane and elemental magic"), and necromancy. Except, as we learned, "necromancy" is not an art using "arcane magic" no longer. I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself correctly here. Basically : "abjuration" (for example) is a way to use "Arcane magic", with a bit of "elemental magic". Still fits in this article since there is "Arcane magic" involved. "Necromancy" however is a way of using "death magic", no "arcane magic" is involved at all in this process - the book itself describes it as being "shadow magic" and "death magic" - and thus should not be in the article about "arcane magic".

So basically either you take these books literally and necromancy no longer fits, or you use interpretation and assume that "arcane" here does not mean "arcane magic" but is just an adjective as you say to mean "ancient" or "intellectual" or whatever, in which case the whole book series doesn't fit exactly because it wouldn't be about "arcane the magic", but "magic" in general and should thus go in the article about Magic. -- ShellShockLive (talk) 18:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm with Aquamonkeykeg on this. It's an in-universe book written by the Kirin Tor, not an out of universe "word of God". Just because the Kirin Tor associate arcane with necromancy doesn't mean they're right to be saying so, nor is it necessarily something Chronicle retconned--it's just what the KT thinks. ReignTG (talk) 19:06, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

We have also seen that multiple types of magic can be used to perform necromancy. The Kirin Tor wrote about using arcane magic for necromancy, but then they use it almost exclusively. However, we've also seen instances of fel being used for necromancy - most notably Mannoroth in Hellfire Citadel. The Shadownmoon Clan uses void magic for necromancy, and of course there's just straight-up using death magic directly. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:27, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

That's also a good point, we've seen non-death magic do necromancy before. And arcane has also stepped into other magic types' territory before as well, like fire and frost even though that's usually reserved for elemental magic. ReignTG (talk) 20:29, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Guys, there's a misunderstanding, necromancy can definitely be achieved through other means (such as fel as we've seen with Gul'dan and Mannoroth), however this is not the subject. The type of necromancy that this book talks about is, I quote from the book, "shadow energy" and "death magic", not fel or arcane or whatever. They did not say something along the lines of "mages use arcane to raise the dead" or "to practice necromancy" or whatever, there is not a single mention of arcane being even remotely used or mixed with these magics/energies in that book, it's purely shadow/death magic. I highly doubt the Kirin Tor categorizes shadow and death magic as arcane magic. Your thoughts ? -- ShellShockLive (talk) 20:40, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Well in that case, my thoughts are that despite what you "highly doubt" the book shows they clearly do classify it as arcane magic considering the name of the book is "The Schools of Arcane Magic" and it includes that. Doesn't mean they're right, but it does mean that's how they classify it. ReignTG (talk) 22:15, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Well it definitely looks like a retcon to me because that book categorizes shadow and death magic as part of the schools of arcane, whereas Chronicle separated shadow and death magic from the arcane as you can see here (http://i.imgur.com/1shdQ8h.png). The reason I doubt is that it would surprise me that the most knowledgeable and powerful human and elven magi in existence would confuse shadow and death magic with arcane magic. It just seems highly improbable to me. However if you guys are still not convinced well, I'll just put it back with a note saying that it's just flavor lore as Xporc suggested and that Chronicle states otherwise. -- ShellShockLive (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Chaotic in nature?

Sorry but, why is it written that arcane's chaotic in nature when we have hundreds of sources claiming the opposite? That phrase is just a reference to night elves' views upon arcane magic.

Also, pretty much the entire Chronicles associate arcane with Order. There's also Dave Kosak tweet (but I can't post links right now). --Faramses (talk) 13:46, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

True, that was a left over from previous lore. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:37, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Arcane blows things up all the time.--SWM2448 20:38, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Technically you could blow things up with any type of magic ; here they were referring to the innate properties of these magics, in previous lore, arcane used to be chaos (too), but no longer : fel is chaos, and arcane is order (whatever that means).-- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 20:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

The Relationship Between Arcane And Fel

This is somewhat related to the conersation above. I also posted this on the magic discussion page.

So, with the release of Chronicle, it's fair to say the basics of Warcraft's magic system has changed. The most puzzling thing for me is the relationship between arcane and fel. I was wondering if there was any way we could clarify this specifically within this page, even if it's just in a "speculation" or "notes" section.

The "old lore" stated that arcane was "pure magic" and that fel was either arcane at it's most "raw" or most "corrupt". Chronicles changes this by saying arcane is a force of order and fel is a force of disorder.

The confusion here comes from the numerous instances in the lore, even recently (Aluneth's wanting to "wreak havoc" for example) that portray arcane as a volatile, "chaotic" force. Even the wowpedia articles on arcane refer to it as both a force of order and a volatile form of magic. There's also older examples like ethereals being transformed by the "arcane energies in the nether", arcane mages called "nethermancers" in Tempest Keep, and netherstorm being described as a place destroyed by "arcane storms".

The devs have said that arcane and fel are two sides of the same coin, or at least on the same "spectrum". They've also said that arcane is harnessed by manipulating mana, sort of like turning water (mana) into steam (arcane). Sources like the Jaina book describe arcane magic use as similar to mathematics. Most of this is already sourced and cited on both the magic page and this page.

So, putting this all together, I think this is the case:

Both arcane and fel can be considered forces of "pure" mana. Arcane is what happens when you take that pure, raw, chaotic force and try to stabilize or impose order upon it. Fel is what happens when you embrace its inherent chaos and push toward dangerous, possibly self-destructive limits.

I recognize the last bit there is my own speculation, how does this sound in general? Do you guys think this is worth mentioning in any way? As it stands, there's still a lot of conflicting information on this, and I wanted your thoughts.

Also, apologies if I did anything wrong posting here. This is my first time interacting with a wiki. Psychotrip1 (talk) 02:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's any "confusion" that needs clearing up. Regarding the ethereals, arcane also exists in the Nether, nothing weird about that. Chronicle Volume 3 also describes Netherstorm as having been destroyed by fel and the "chaotic energies of the Nether".

I also think the conclusion reached is not related to the premise in any way. Regarding arcane and mana, we know they are "basically the same thing" and related in many ways (ley lines in Suramar create mana crystals, etc.). Fel is just a type of magic that opposes arcane, created by the merging of Light and Shadow surrounding the Nether. They do not have the same origin as far as we know, the "spectrum" you mentioned is a metaphorical one (order vs chaos), they are not actually the same energy but under a different form. -- MyMindWontQuiet 13:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)