Talk:Alexstrasza

When was the name changed?

Shadows&Light as well as various ingame sources still call her Life-Binder. Please give a source why to change it like that, otherwise -Binder of Life- is alias. (Same goes for the changes at Ysera, etc. made by the same user (Ragestorm))

Sign your posts, please. "Binder of Life" and "She of the Dreaming" are mentioned in Day of the Dragon and WotA, and I think some other places, though I can't quote. As for why change, I find this more dramatic- and I fail to see how "Life-Binder" and "Binder of Life" have different meanings.--Ragestorm 21:12, 26 November 2006 (EST)

Sorry, forgot to sign. Anyway, don't mind if I say for the main-name we should go with what names are used more commonly (in the pen&Paper sourcebooks, for example or even in blue posts at the forums, from what I saw). Another example would be Malygos, who also goes by -Hand of Magic- yet...would you change -the spellweaver- underneath his picture on the page change to that?--Maibe 07:38, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Malygos the Blue, hand of Magic. Not on my list, but it flows well. But that's not the point. "Binder of Life," has the same meaning (and words) as "Life-Binder." If I called her "Giver of Acorns" or something, then I could see the issue, but not with this one. On a side not, forums do not count as a source of anything unless the post comes from a Bizzard employee.--Ragestorm 09:24, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Fact check needed

Information in this passage conflicts with other WoWiki articles. *ALL* 5 Aspects put power into the Dragon Soul? (I thought Neltharion did not). Neltharion is the last black dragon? I thought the *BLUE* dragons were wiped out. Passage follows:

To stop the Legion, the five Aspects put all their power into an ancient artifact called the Dragon Soul. Neltharion, however, betrayed his fellow Aspects and used the Dragon Soul (now also called the Demon Soul) to steal a portion of their power. The Aspects cast out Neltharion. Thus the War of the Ancients both tore the land of Azeroth, as well as rendered Neltharion the last black dragon. --Axx 02:13, 30 November 2006 (EST)

From what I understood fomr the War of Anicents Trilogy every dragon, except for Neltharion, as said, gave a part of their power to the soul. That includes the blick flight as well. Old Deathwing gave a bit of his power too, but in another way, so he won't be effected by the soul and noone except him could destroy it.From the Pen&Paper sourcebooks I think we can say a many black dragons fell in the following war, yet not all...Just remember Onyxia and Nefarian, they've been around at that time already. Deathwing's last mates appeared to have been slain at the beginning of the second war. I suspect, in all his twisted mind, Deathwing didn't think Onyxia worthy to become broodmother and therefor he went to steal eggs to have mates again. Anyway, as said, going straight by the word, Neltharion did put a bit of his power into the soul, just in a different way from the other aspects.--Maibe 07:34, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Excellent. Ty. --Axx 12:35, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Another fact check

Although probably the most powerful of the Aspects, she is by far not the eldest, her once-consort Tyranastrasz being her elder by several hundreds if not thousands of years before the Titans gifted her.

Where is the above info from? User:Kirkburn/Sig 17:04, 27 January 2007 (EST)

I never heard of that. I always thought the Aspects were the first of their race. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 17:20, 27 January 2007 (EST)

I've not heard that one either. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:51, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Nethercrypt here. I was reading Day of the Dragons while at the same time browsing WoWWiki, and then read that Tyranastrasz was older by the Dragonqueen through this excrept... "The third (consort), the eldest of the lot, had remained by his queen's side, but he had been centuries older than even Alexstrasza, and now those centuries, coupled with past near-mortal wounds, had taken their toll." 4th paragraph, 3rd sentence, page 58. And the third consort I have gathered from reading is Tyranastrasz, for her next consort is Korialstrasz, and the third consort is before him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nethercrypt (talk · contr).

Unfortunately I don't have 'normal' copy of DotD to hand, but I do have the compilation book which uses different page numbers - which chapter is that? I've cited it in the article for now :) User:Kirkburn/Sig 06:17, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Chapter four. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nethercrypt (talk · contr).

Thanks, I'll take a look when I get home :) User:Kirkburn/Sig 04:48, 29 January 2007 (EST)

Found it. Weird, it didn't register when I read it the first time. So what does that mean, that the titans just picked one random dragon from each of the flights and made them into the Aspects? ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 07:43, 29 January 2007 (EST)

If distinct flights already existed, how could Ysera have been Alextrasza's sister?--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 08:40, 29 January 2007 (EST)

I don't think they are biological sisters. They refer to each other with the term, but that could simply be as they are the Aspects, and as such, equal in power and position, and have been on very close terms for a very long time. They also refer to Neltharion as 'brother' at one point in DotD, which he haughtily rebukes, spitting 'I'm not your brother!' or some such. ----  Varghedin  talk / contribs 12:08, 29 January 2007 (EST)

I'll have to get Shadows&Light back from a friend, but I'm almost certain in it Ysera is descriped as Alexstrasza's younger sister in a realted-beeings way...--Maibe 12:20, 29 January 2007 (EST)

Eonar also blessed Alexstrasza's younger sister, the lithe green dragon Ysera, with a portion of nature's influence.- That's the quote from the history of Warcraft. On a side note, it also implies that Alexstrasza is the queen of all dragons, not just the reds. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:46, 29 January 2007 (EST)

I think that maybe even though they are different colors, they all belong to the same species. The aspects are all related, brother-sister kinda way, with Deathwing exiled and loathed. The primary flights all have reign over a power, and before, there used to be minor dragonflights of different colors. All dragons were related, but the same-colored dragons tended to stick together, kind of like Americans and cultural diversity. -Nethercrypt

Makes sense. In future, please refrain from starting your comments with spaces.-_Ragestorm (talk · contr) 22:52, 4 February 2007 (EST)

This whole relationship issue is very questionable, as is age. As stated before, Tyranistrasz was stated as being older than Alexstrasza, however in Wrath of the Lich King, Alexstrasza herself clearly states that the Aspects were created from Glakrond. Not simply empowered, but created. This would suggest, at least to me, that Alexstrasza and the other Aspects were the originals, the oldest. You have to remember, though, that this certainly wouldn't be the first contradiction in Warcraft Lore, its an unfortunate side effect of such a rich, vibrant history. Wadark (talk) 13:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to double-post here, but I've been looking into as many sources as I can find to discern the true origins of the Aspects. From the official WoW History, it is stated that the Titans' shaping of Azeroth took ages, possibly millenia. Over this time they created several races including the earthen and sea giants. This could indicate that they may have made many dragons over the course of the centuries, possibly making Tyran early on, and Alexstrasza years later, this is also evidenced by the fact that official lore refers to Ysera as Alex's younger sister. Now, from Alexstrasza herself in-game, we learn that the Aspects were formed from the original dragon Galakrond (origin unknown) but that (from the official history) they weren't each empowered by a specific Titan until the end of the Shaping. The only inaccuracy following this line of thought is that Alexstrasza's quest text makes it seem as though the Aspects were the first ever dragons (after Galakrond, of course) which makes Tyran's age in DotD a retcon. So perhaps it would be more accurate if Alexstrasza said that the "dragons" were created from Galakrond, not just the aspects.

So, to recap, here's how it would have gone:

• Titans begin shaping world, creating the dragons from Galakrond early on.
• Titans continue to shape the world over centuries or millenia, possibly still creating more dragons from Galakrond and/or dragons are beginning to reproduce. (i.e. Tyran is born before Alexstrasza, who is born before Ysera)
• Titans finish shaping the world and empower the leaders of each of the 5 primary dragonflights (how Alexstrasza, being not the eldest, became leader over Tyran is unknown). Wadark (talk) 15:21, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You know it really just hit me why we don't choose between sources now. The thing about that timeline is it ignores source in the past saying the dragons already existed, and assumes the Galakrond situation is true. As far as the article goes, both sides need to be presented. A good example of this if you want to see is Kilrogg (Though with Kilrogg the new history seems far more solid). As far as lore goes: This is very likely a retcon. And if we find out later it is fully intentional (or "accidental" and they decide to run with it) we can adjust the articles, archive it in a way. But one line of quest text in WoW that contradicts everything in the past...very well could be an oversight. You see little things like that in WoW all the time, things that don;t make sense but are one or two lines of text which are inconsequential so thy are ignored. All future sources may completely ignore this new tidbit, and most of the current info doesn't work or can't be explained with this new developement. So both sides need to be presented.Warthok Talk Contribs 16:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Grim Batol?

Where's it say that Alexstrasza is now living in Grim Batol?--Parqual Fintalas

Hum, I think it's said in Day of the Dragon. Would someone be kind enough to check ?--K ) (talk) 16:36, 21 February 2007 (EST)

DotD ends with all parties in question flying off and Krasus leaving the Kirin Tor. No mention of Alexstrasza or even Deathwing. Check the history on WoW.com.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:52, 21 February 2007 (EST)

Thanks Ragestorm. I see nothing on the official WoW encyclopedia implying that Alexstrasza resides in Grim Batol. A removal of this inaccurate/false/unjustified information will be done if none can quote a proof.--K ) (talk) 08:36, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Afaik it's only an assumption based on the concentration of the red dragonflight around Grim Batol. User:Kirkburn/Sig 09:46, 22 February 2007 (EST)

FYI, I believe this is from Lands of Conflict. IIRC, it's in both the section about Grim Batol, and the section about the Sunwell (as there was a little story hook there about the dragonflights trying to revitalize it). Of course, given she is apparently in Northrend in WotLK, this may no longer be accurate anyways (unless you think of it as her living in Grim Batol, but visiting Northrend "to help fight Malygos/The Lich King"). --WarlockSoL (talk) 19:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, she now resides in Northrend as a quest giver. The assumption she resided in Grim Batol was only due to the abundance of dragons about the exterior. Grim Batol was the place where Alexstrasza was held captive by Nekros Skullcrusher and forced to produce dragons for the orcs to ride. At the end of DotD, the Demon Soul is destroyed returning Alexstrasza's power to her. It was mentioned on the Grim Batol page that she remained there to recuperate. This seems unlikely since she had regained her powers already, plus I doubt it likely that she would return to the place where she had been held captive and ostensibly tortured. Wadark (talk) 13:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Alexstrasza "Freed Twice" or not...

Continued from Talk: Day of the Dragon.

Basically there is an issue, and possibly a retcon, in Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal during the orc campaign(which takes place after WC2 but before the Human campaign), it states,

With the Dragon Queen Alexstrasza rescued and the Dragonmaw clan captured by the Alliance, we were no longer able to command these great winged beasts.(Dragons of Blackrock Spire)

In other words the freeing of Alexstrasza originally happened between Tides of Darkness and Beyond the Dark Portal.

Now Day of the Dragon talks about event of how she was freed. I haven't read the book, so I don't know when it implies the story to take place.

Later timelines starting with the one in Warcraft III place Day of the Dragon after the events of Warcraft II and its Expansion.

All later timelines follow this pattern. I'm unclear if they placed Day after the Dragon after WC2 in WC3 manual. Perhaps it was so they could keep the sections about WC2 together in one section of the manual... or perhaps they decided to do it for other reasons. However the manual of WC3 definitely implies that event takes place after the events of Beyond the Dark Portal.

"After the destruction of the second dark portal"...

So there are a few possibilities blizzard ignored the quote in WC2, or forgot about it...or Alexstrasza was captured and freed twice...

In anycase in that same mission, in WC2, because the orcs no longer have access to red dragons, this is when orcs free some black dragons and convince them to join their cause, it is also the time when they allied with Deathwing.Baggins 00:49, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

I hadn't thought of that line. But then, Blizzard hasn't said how exactly the events of BTDP officially unfolded. Both campaigns took place at the same time, but because the campaigns contradict each other at times, there's question as to what all happened.--Austin P 16:56, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

My guess would be to interpret DotD plot as happening during the invasion of Draenor; this would allow a middle gound of timelines. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 23:51, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

"Both campaigns took place at the same time, but because the campaigns contradict each other at times, there's question as to what all happened."

Actually with the exception of one or two missions towards the end of of the orc campaign that take place at the same time as the end of human campaign, BtDP campaigns tell a linear story starting with orc campaign followed by the human campaign. That is during the Orc campaign, tells the story of the orcs getting ahold of the artifacts needed to open more than one portal on Draenor, and the Human campaign starts after orcs had captured those artifacts. Both endings discuss the portals ripping Draenor apart.-Baggins 22:14, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm afraid you're mistaken. Before the Orcs cross over to Azeroth, the Thunderlord, Bonechewer and Laughing Skull clan are taken out by Ner'zhul, but they are seen throughout the human campaign and the humans ally with the Laughing Skull clan. Deathwing is killed during an Alliance mission but is present during the final Orc mission. And finally, Kul Tiras is sacked and razed during the Orc campaign, but is intact and well at the beginning of WC3. --Austin P 13:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Baggins is right. With the exception of a few missions that somewhat overlap each other, the two campaigns are rather linear. Beyond the Dark Portal is full of inconsistancies which are mostly brought about by the lack of triggers to accomplish the authors' true intentions. Tides of Darkness was generally smart about this - writing the story around the engine's limitations, but BTDP was actually developed by a seperate studio, so they took their own approach. In Tides, if you killed a hero (such as Lothar), he was dead as far as the lore was concerned. In Beyond, they throw all heroes at you any time they feel like incorporating them into the story. By all accounts, if you accepted what happened in the games as literal, all of the Alliance and Horde heroes would be dead, as they were ALL killed in various missions (including for example, Grom Hellscream and Khadgar). So for example, rather than saying "Ner'zhul met up with the Alliance Expedition at the Dark Portal and made his way past them", they stick the Alliance Expedition at the portal and force you to kill them to win the scenario, despite the Human campaign taking place right after this with those same heroes.

Anyways, in general, you want to follow the actual story and not explicitly what happens in the missions (i.e. X kills Y). Regarding the Clans, only the Thunderlords and Bonechewers are explicitly said to be "wiped out" in the briefing, and even that is somewhat vague:

You are to lead the forces of Shadowmoon against the strongholds of both Bonechewer and Thunderlord. Once these weak fools and their clans are removed, no others will dare to interfere with the dark schemes of Ner'zuhl.

You may be wiping them out from a seat of power, but that is not to say you are killing every single Thunderlord everywhere. Aside from this, the Laughing Skull are never exactly "wiped out" either, you just retrieve the Skull of Gul'dan from around Mogor's neck (whom I should add, you probably "kill" since there is a generic Ogre at the end of that mission, yet he's alive and kicking even in Burning Crusade, so again, take in-game actions with a grain of salt).

That being said, regarding the original point of this discussion, I still maintain the WarCraft 3 manual is flat out wrong and that Day of the Dragon *has* to take place between Tides and BTDP. The timelines are CONSTANTLY contradicting themselves too (not just on this, but on other events), so it's hard to say which is considered right there as well. But we all know the writing team is not infalable (i.e. Sargeras/Draenei). I anticipate the upcoming Beyond the Dark Portal novel will either clear this up, or hopelessly screw up the lore to jam the square peg from the War 3 manual into the universe's round hole. And given some of the other things they've done, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the later :( --WarlockSoL (talk) 19:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on most of yoru points. I too think it will be end up being the latter, especially considering that every author seems to pick and choose whatever events they want to cover, without trying to tie everything together. I fnd the novels tend to suffer from alot of compression of time when it comes to certain events, making them appeaer to occur much faster than they actually took place. That just adds to the th convusion.Baggins (talk) 20:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Wrath of the Lich King?

It is said that the Red flight is helping us fight the blues in WotLK. Is it possible that Alexstrazsa herself will aid us against Malygos?I wear the cheese, it does not wear me. 01:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There's a quote somewhere... let me go dig it up. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The red dragonflight will stand up and defend us against him. We will get empowered as players by their leader. From wowinsider. --Sky (t · c · w) 01:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Might actually refer to Korialstrasz, but probably Alexstrasza. One or both of them will probably appear in an assumed form in Dalaran. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 03:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to report that I'm pretty sure Alexstrasza was name-checked in at least one panel. User:Kirkburn/Sig3 06:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Not to be nitpicky, but Korialstrasz actually makes a but more sense than her- he would fit in perfectly in Dalaran. Of course, it's Alextrasza...--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

And he mentioned in "The Well of Eternity" that he was planning on returning to the Kirin Tor to help them. --Austin P 23:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Alexstrasza has been confirmed to be in Wrath of the Lich King in this IGN article: [1]

You can fly up [Wyrmrest Temple] too. By talking with an NPC at the base it's possible to ride up to the Wyrmrest's peak, which turns out to be quite a distance up, on a dragon's back. At the summit you talk to a huge elf named Alexstrasza the life-binder, whom will likely give you quests and let you gain reputation.

Despite IGN not knowing that she's not an elf, it's clear she'll be dishing out quests in the expansion. Someone may want to add this to the page. --WarlockSoL (talk) 18:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

That's awesome! Kirkburn  talk  contr 18:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed! This sounds brilliant :) Warchiefthrall (talk) 18:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Seems to also confirm Wyrmrest Keep is a neautral town controlled by the Red Dragonflight. Leviathon (talk) 18:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Quote

At the top of the page it says, "She is hinted to be the leader and most powerful of the Aspects, as her domain, life, encompasses four to a certain degree." What is the four referring to? It looks like the grammar is messed up.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 11:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The word "other" should be in there, the four meaning the other four Aspects. Better evidence for that point should actually be because she's the Dragonqueen, a title not given to Ysera...--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:49, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

"Other" isn't necessarily required. "Four" is referring to the fact that Alexstrasza's dominion over life encompasses 4 of the 5 aspects to a degree. However I don't see which four they are talking about. Her own (obviously), the Emerald Dream of Ysera (relating somewhat to a "collective unconscious" of Azeroth), but the other three having dominion over Time, Earth, and Magic...none of those seem too dependent on life. Wadark (talk) 13:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Magic needs something living or once-living to use it, Earth has life upon it.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 13:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Time, however, is not dependent at all on life or a lack thereof. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 04:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

As Malygos has declared war on magic users, and Alextrasz has declared that her flight will defend the races of those that helped rescue her, I read that as she has either abandoned, or no longer has, dominion over the Blue flight, therefore 4 of the 5 flights would be correct.King-Kodiak (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Image

Are we sure the image in the infobox represents Alex? That dragon is the same in the Onyxia's Lair loading screen[2]. --N'Nanz (talk) 08:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

This is Alexstrasza's image from Shadows & Light.Dakovski (talk) 09:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Dragons in Humanoid form ?

Sorry im saying at this Article but i want too now why most Dragons Prefer Humanoid form( mostly as a Blood Elf), i now size dosen't matter some times but still but why wold they want too be 2-3 metters(human or Blood Elf size) high instead of 30-50 meters(Dragon size)? Can someone please explain ? (Entaro Adun)(DarckArchon (talk · contr))

Sign your posts. It's because humanoid form is far less conspicuous, allows them to fit into smaller areas, and if danger presents themselves they can transform at a moments notice. Another reason in WoW is because a humanoid npc is far less obtrusive than a enourmous dragon. Imagine Wyrmrest temple without the dragons transformed, it would be a colision nightmare.Warthok Talk Contribs 13:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, not to be picky, but they seem to prefer high elf forms, only a few seem to use blood elf forms.--Blayaden (talk) 17:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

As for a Lore reason, consider this. Would you rather talk to a monstrous fire/sand/acid/etc breathing winged Lizard, Or something a bit more "human." I would say it's more to put mortals at ease. Simple, friendly diplomacy. Artur Lightrage, Sword of A'dal 2:46 11/23/2008

And as Tyri says, most dragons find elves "aesthetically pleasing." --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 17:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

And for times when being an enormous dragon that weighs several tons is a disadvantage, i.e. when Onyxia turns into Lady Prestor to walk across the less stable parts of her cavern's floor. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 09:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok i get the picture with Diplomacy, Colision Nightmare, "monstrous fire/sand/acid/etc breathing winged Lizard"(LOL XD). But lets talk about combat. A normal human(Humanoid watever) would just cast spels wield a sword mace staff etc. or A big, big(Bigger!)Dragon for some its Demoralizing, Causes Fear( in Pshihic ways) and Smashing, Rending with claws, Tail Strike, Devouring, its still a "Big" Diference.Btw i find more atractive/beutifull/strong as a Dragon, i know a Dragonkin ho prefers too be a gnome :P --My life for Aiur (talk) 08:03, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

She looks like an Eredar to me. VerdrisMCU (talk) 01:38, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

In Game Quotes

They are not unique quotes, they are the /hi and /bye emotes of Blood Elf females, prior to patch 3.2 she used blood elf female NPC quotes. Again, they are not unique in any way.--Saphiredragon89 (talk) 04:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Elf form terminology

IMO she looks far more like a night elf than a blood elf due to her amber eyes and greenish gray skin. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:44, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Um... I don't know what you've been staring at, but she's clearly based off of the blood elf/high elf model. Compare here standing pose to a night elf's and its pretty obvious. Also, she has a CUSTOM model, so she can have any eye color Blizzard wants (yellow eyes aren't uncommon according to lore) She also has a blood/high elf hairstyle and a normal skin color for an elf. The only odd thing is that she has horns. Dragons get nice perks, no? :P--Blayaden (talk) 14:33, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Her skin looks pink in wowhead's model viewer, I guess the lighting in Wyrmrest Temple and my video settings just made her look gray. Technically, none of the Ulduar flashback forms could be blood elf or high elf forms, as the Ulduar flashback takes place thousands of years before the exile of the Highborne. Anyway, I've edited the article to state that her form resembles a high elf or blood elf except for the height, eyes, skin and horns, and to refer to the form as an elf form or humanoid form. From a real-world perspective, her model was based on the blood elf model, but from an in-universe perspective, she took the form of a tall, skinny night elf with horns before blood elves existed. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 02:08, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

It also shows Deathwing (aka Neltharion) as a male human, and Ysera as a regular night elf. I agree it's an inconsistency, but her "humanoid" form is clearly that of a high/blood elf. Perhaps the flashback showed the aspects in forms we could understand? I don't know, but I think labeling her as a night elf is a bad idea.--Blayaden (talk) 00:00, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe it's supposed to be the form of a skinny night elf with horns, and they used the blood elf / high elf model because there isn't any skinny night elf model the blood elf model was considered close enough (much like how Lantresor of the Blade uses a reskinned orc model and Arator the Redeemer uses a high elf / blood elf model). Anyway, since we can't be sure, I think we should just call it an elf form and mention that her unique model is based on the female blood elf / high elf model. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 07:55, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

That's probably for the best. There are MANY conflicts about what certain NPC's should be classified with. There are still ongoing conflicts on whether a certain npc is a high elf or blood elf due to their similar appearance. (See Astromancer Darnarian and Gilthares Firebough talk pages for what I mean. ^_^;) Dragons are an exception due to the fact that they choose their "humanoid" form. So, I say go for it if you really feel like it.--Blayaden (talk) 14:19, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Main Protagonist

It may be safe to assume, based of the recent art, that Alexstrasza will serve as Cataclysm's main protagonist. Lore and a few comments from developers support that Alexstrasza has the most reason and is most likely to directly oppose Deathwing in this manner. The question becomes whether we should assume this in the main article now or wait until it can be confirmed or denied.--Saphiredragon89 (talk) 03:45, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Should wait for it. Antagonist is easy, protagonists are maybe not who we think :)

Loremaster A'noob, Arch Druid of the Noobhoof Clan (^talk/_contribz) 07:08, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Nekros Contradiction

In light of a controversial quest recently added to the PTR, I've taken a look back at the source material where Nekros forced Alexstrasza to lay eggs. Day of the Dragon, the Tides of Darkness novelization, and possibly War Crimes mention this (I don't have the latter). Chronicle Vol 2 mentions that Alexstrasza laid eggs while imprisoned, but there is no mention of her being forced to. It states Nekros deciding to use her children as weapons was an afterthought, and suggests Nekros didn't even expect her to lay eggs: [3]https://i.imgur.com/KpeO3jQ.png Chronicle 2 was published in 2017 after all those novels, and I'm sure many of us know that Chronicle was Metzen's attempt to clarify any murkiness or contradictions in the lore. I'm not aware of any official source published since Chronicle 2 in 2017 that described Alexstrasza as forced to lay eggs (if there is one, please tell let me know). As such, we have a recent source (who happens to be Metzen) contradicting older sources. Right now, I am not trying to answer which source is canon. I'm only pointing out that there is a contradiction, and it should be properly noted in the article especially considering the immense community interest on the topic. I have added a parenthetical note to the article. I've tried to keep it as matter-of-fact as possible. Open to suggestions on how we can better convey this information in the article. Tyrsenus t c 04:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for suggesting this discussion. Indeed, after proofreading, Chronicles 2 does not mention the fact that Alextrasza and his consort were forced to make eggs. However, although the Chronicles series allows itself a lot of change, it allows itself to skip a lot of details that are specified in other sources, as it is often summaries of novels for those who do not have them. As you rightly said, Day of the Dragon, Tides of Darkness novelization, and War Crimes (i confirmed), as well as the lore of Tyranastrasz, confirm that she was forced to have eggs in detention. It's important to note that Chronicles 2 does not retcon this plot, i agree Nekros' reaction seems a bit strange to read (a mistake in explanation?), but in any case, the capture of Alexstrasza was intended to create mounts of war and block the red dragonflight to counter plans of deathwing. For my part, I will therefore withdraw your clarification on the Alextrasza page and let other editors speak on the subject before we make a decision to modify/leave the information on the Dragon Queen page. WardsJames (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah the general consensus is "Chronicle not mentioning something doesn't make it non-canon". Maybe Nekros didn't expected Alexstrasza to lay eggs, but later forced her to kept her doing so. Xporc (talk) 09:32, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for quick feedback all. Let's break this down into two specific points: 1) Nekros planning to use Alexstrasza's children as mounts of war before vs after the eggs were laid. Chronicle 2 contradicts the novels on this: "Alexstrasza began laying new clutches of eggs. Nekros was quick to see this as a golden opportunity." It's Nekros' afterthought in Chronicle, and it doesn't mention any pre-meditated plan to use Alexstrasza to lay eggs prior to her enslavement, either (p. 155-156). 2) Nekros forcing Alexstrasza to lay eggs. This is in the novels, Chronicle omits it. Both points are notable differences between sources (#1 even appears to be a retcon). As such, the article could better adhere to the lore policy ("All versions should be compared and contrasted with citations, in order to portray the true publishing history.") I propose that the article should contrast the novels and Chronicle in a neutral manner: "Alexstrasza was brought to Grim Batol, where she laid several clutches of eggs. (Novels published prior to World of Warcraft: Chronicle described Nekros forcing Alexstrasza to lay eggs. Chronicle does not mention this, and indicates Nekros planned to use her children as mounts of war only after eggs were laid.)" Looking forward to discussion further improving the article. Thanks again. Tyrsenus t c 14:30, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, and I think to match the sources we should write: "Alexstrasza was brought to Grim Batol, where she began laying new clutches of eggs. Nekros was quick to see this as a golden opportunity and the Dragonqueen was therefore forced to lay more eggs. [...]" WardsJames (talk) 14:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that's an improvement. I'd be in favor of updating the article with that, but I think the topic is worthy of further discussion. There are still differences between sources and how they portray events. Ordinarily, I wouldn't say that such small differences matter and I wouldn't be spending my time on it. But considering the controversy and level of attention surrounding this part of the story, I think those nuanced differences are noteworthy - especially since the most recent publication seemingly omits the most controversial parts. I think there is value in plainly presenting that information. I also know it's a lot of information to contain in the body of the article, maybe a footnote is a possibility. Tyrsenus t c 17:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I sincerely think that the controversy is only about the quest itself and what it does with the lore. In fact, the lore itself has been established for years, and unless there is a real retcon, there are no more changes to be made than discussed above. We are on wowpedia, if every time the community agrees or disagrees on something we had to add information / source comparisons about a sensitive subject, we would not be done... However, if the quest was somehow removed/changed due to the controversy, a note will certainly be added to explain the nature of this change/remove (and why). Until then, I propose to be wise and patient, to wait for a reaction or an official return from blizzard, a modification, well... anything that might suggest that they are reacting to all this (also i'm going to made the edit, as we both agree about it) WardsJames (talk) 18:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)