Talk:Jinyu

Can anyone source:

Jinyu flourish. In a sense, the Jinyu maintain and cultivate natural water sources, even creating smaller streams with elemental magic. But the Jinyu also exercise a dominion over Pandaria’s rivers and lakes that can bring them into conflict with other races. They regularly stop up rivers to create their homes and breeding pools, and the multifaceted dwellings they create aren’t simple mud lodges – they are towns and camps that can extend beneath the water. ???

Sarm3 (talk) 02:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mists-of-pandaria/feature/bestiary Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 02:29, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Two empires

What is the reasoning behind saying that there were both the pre and post-Sundering empires?--SWM2448 19:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know, all information we have on an actual 'empire' refers to the pre-Sundering empire. The only confusion lies with the ambiguity with regard to the reason for the jinyu's downfall. As I've noted on the page, the demise of the jinyu is blamed both on the mogu and on the hozen. Various possible explanations exist for this, either in terms of historical perspective/beliefs or order of events, but since the hozen's mention references the jinuy standing "on the throne of all of Pandaria", it seems unlikely this refers to a post-Sundering empire; at least, if that is the intended meaning, it's incredibly unclear and apparently completely unmentioned elsewhere. As far as the page itself goes, I don't think it's misleading; the latter mention is in the post-Sundering section but clearly states "Many thousand years ago" - any ambiguity beyond that is the fault of the sources themselves. -- Taohinton (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

There was a Hozen emperor of the Pandaren Empire. The existence of a jinyu emperor of "all of Pandaria" seems to indicate that there was a Jinyu dinasty before Shaohao and it was later vanquished by the Hozen. That way, all the sources fit.--Cemotucu (talk) 20:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. I had considered that possibility, but I can find no evidence of it, on any of the related pages. If you know where information on this can be found, it should be added to all of the related pages (Hozen and Pandaren Empire for starters) - and link it here, too, please :P If you're just conjecturing, I don't think the phrase "all of Pandaria" is any reference to the Pandaren Empire; the pandaren are simply the latest Pandarian empire to come along, and the above would arguably suggest that the Pandaren Empire wasn't around at the time of the jinyu empire (the jinyu are after all looked up to by the pandaren as an elder race). -- Taohinton (talk) 21:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

As noted on Jinyu empire, there is the presumably post-Sundering story of the Pearlfin's fall from the throne of Pandaria, and there is the pre-Sundering story of the mogu's conquest of the jinyu empire which came with patch 5.2. This page puts things like Seeker Arusshi's comment before the Sundering, and the second section acts a lot more sure of itself than it should be. It is assumed that Emperor Rikktik and Rassharom were dynasties of the Pandaren empire, which makes more sense, but now the jinyu (and maybe the hozen) had an independent empire before the Sundering.--SWM2448 21:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

There are two matters here: whether there were two periods of jinyu 'rule', and whether the latter took place post-Sundering. The second point is easy to clear up: Shaohao was the last emperor of Pandaria. His famed acts immediately before the Sundering made sure "there was no longer a need for an emperor anymore, making Shaohao the last Emperor of Pandaria." (Dave Kosak on Twitter). That seems pretty clear. Any post-mogu jinyu empire was therefore still a pre-Sundering empire.

Regarding the first point: Exhibit A ("The mogu fought against the jinyu empire in a battle that lasted forty days and forty nights.") is set before Lei Shen's rise to power, and is therefore clearly pre-mogu (and pre-Pandaren Empire). Exhibit B ("Many thousand years ago, the Pearlfin Tribe stood on the throne of all Pandaria.") is far less clear; Seeker Arusshi's comment is simply "Once, Jinyu ruled all of Pandaria from this place, from this seat of power." - 'once' being the key word. The only other evidence I can find is Rassharom's title "Emperor of Pandaria" which again could refer to an empire in either time period.

So, what we have is at least one clear reference to a pre-mogu empire; and two highly ambiguous references - 'standing on the throne of all Pandaria' and 'ruled all of Pandaria' - set 'many thousand years ago' and 'once'. The latter references could be referring to a post-mogu jinyu rule as part of the Pandaren Empire or they could simply be referring to the pre-mogu one we know existed.

Finally, I disagree that the second section of the page is 'too sure of itself' - it only makes one reference to the jinyu empire, which is put in that section solely because that's where the rest of the discussion of the hozen-jinyu conflict is (since it extends into the present day). In the opposite direction, I have however removed the section which specifically referenced the ambiguity, given that there appears to be at least some possibility that the hozen note is referring to a separate, post-mogu empire. Arusshi's comment could refer to either empire, or both. -- Taohinton (talk) 16:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps the simplest solution to that particular ambiguity at this time is simply to remove the pre- and post- section headings entirely. There's really no need for them, since it's all part of the jinyu history. -- Taohinton (talk) 16:13, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

This page tricked me. When I said Sundering, I meant Pandaren revolution. Now I realize that this page is double wrong.--SWM2448 18:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Just for completeness, it should be pointed out that Seeker Arusshi's comment "Once, Jinyu ruled all of Pandaria from this place, from this seat of power. [the Vale of Eternal Blossoms]" must be referring to a pre-mogu empire, since the post-mogu Pandaren Empire closed the Vale and moved the 'seat of power' to the Jade Forest; the Vale wasn't opened again until the Horde and Alliance arrived. The opinion of having 'ruled all of Pandaria' is still a little subjective though - the other races may or may not have accepted the jinyu as their rulers, although apparently they were 'respected by most races'. I doubt the mantid did, nor the not yet unified mogu. -- Taohinton (talk) 02:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)