Talk:Gutterspeak

Background

This needs some more editing. In reality forsaken have not lost any ability to speak common, and they only use gutterspeak in the game as a gameplay mechanic. In spin off literature Common is still their main language.Baggins

I've divided the article into separate sections, to try and keep the conflicting in-game, real-world, and RPG versions distinct.--Aeleas 11:34, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Note that the fact that Forsaken don't speak Common anymore isn't only "widely believed" to be aimed at avoiding insults and baiting but this has been confirmed many times by different community managers on the official forums. See for example http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-general/5373180.htm or http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-general/4966029.htm. --Foogray 13:17, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Ya, there is no ingame backstory to why they speak gutterspeak, its simply a gameplay mechanic... Any explanation trying to explain it would be conjecture on our parts. Infact there are many refrences within ingame quests referring to NPCs communicating with NPCs or characters of the opposite factionBaggins 13:20, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Indeed, there are a lot of NPCs of the opposite faction that can talk to the other faction or both factions. There are Forsaken, Troll, Orc, Tauren, Human, Gnome, Dwarf and even Night Elf NPCs who can speak to the opposite faction just fine. And those aren't all guys who are super-educated and belonging to a select group that somehow learned a language of the opposite faction. Also, look back at Warcraft 3. Orcs and Humans could communicate just fine with each other. Okay, you could say this is because the orcs lived in Human internment camps for a long time. But if you use that as an explanation then why did all the orcs in WoW suddenly forget how to speak Common? No, the bottom line is that this whole language barrier thing is purely a gameplay mechanic that hasn't anything to do with the lore. You can try to explain the language barrier in lore terms but this is ultimately silly and even Blizzard didn't try to do so (and largely ignores the language barrier in their licensed products like the mangas, novels or RPG books). It's just a gameplay mechanic and should be treated as such. --Foogray 13:31, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

The fact that it's a gameplay mechanic doesn't preclude the possibility of a lore-based explanation. The choice of language is driven by practical considerations in every medium of the Warcraft universe. In Warcraft III, everyone spoke the same language, except when the night elves needed to sounds mysterious, or the tauren needed to sounds wise. In a novel, if two characters are required by the plot to communicate, they will speak the same language, whereas if one character is meant to appear more threatening and alien, they won't. The fact that Blizzard went to the trouble of naming and translating a language for the Forsaken, as opposed to just preventing each faction from seeing the other's /says and /yells, implies they are going for some sort of sensible coherence within the game.--Aeleas 13:44, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Yes I agree entirely. Despite the fact that in Warcraft III Orcs and Humans can communicate easily, it doesn't mean that Orcs in World of Warcraft forgot Common or Humans in World of Warcraft forgot Orcish. Why did the Forsaken choose Gutterspeak over Common? To part themselves with their former life. DING DING DING! Lore: 1, Gameplay Mechanics: 0. Back to the Orcs and Humans, I believe this goes quite off-topic, but I would have to say that Orcs chose not to speak the language of their enemies, and the same reason for Humans not speaking Orcish. Another point for Lore. D Long ownz U (talk) 04:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"translating a language for the Forsaken" Just to note there isn't actually any actual translating going on, as others have mentinoed in other language articles;

"the language algorithm used by the in-game "translator" merely makes the words LOOK like gutterspeak. It does not actually use a specific dictionary. Therefore, translated in-game speech isn't true Gutterspeak."

I don't think we'll ever see blizzard write down an actual "Gutterspeak" language. Until then, trying to explain the ingame phenomena of why non-canon PC players can't speak to other factions when the NPCs can, is simply conjecture on our parts, rather than anything official. It could be very misleading, to people visiting these boards unless we point out that it is just our conjecture.Baggins 13:52, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

There is no actual translation, but the translator makes every language look different. They concieved of a language called "Gutterspeak" and invented a style for it, then developed a collection of gibberish that fit that style.

There are also NPCs that speak Gutterspeak, as there are with every language, that only Forsaken PCs can understand.

I agree that conjecture should be clearly labelled, but in this case it's quite clear. "It has not been explained why the Forsaken no longer speak Common, but some theorize...". The assumption that there is no lore-based explanation is also conjecture, though it should probably be added to the article. (Done) --Aeleas 14:01, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

"The assumption that there is no lore-based explanation is also conjecture" Actually its not conjecture on my part, its paraphrased from comments made by designers over in the WOW forums(sorry I don't have any links handy). Also the manual for WOW only refer to the use of languages in terms of them being "Horde and Alliance are not allowed to communicate with each other"(if that was intended to be lore I have to ask "who isn't allowing them to communicate?").

Also Gutterspeak is an actual language spoken by the Forsaken, however it is only one of many languages. The idea of there being some kind of "universal language barrier" in actual lore is the only thing that designers have not commented on saying that is only a factor of gameplay mechanics, but not mentioning lore.

The difference between fans trying to explain it, or the designers saying there is no in-universe explanation(because its game mechanics) is that designers are the ones actually creating the game, so by definition it cannot be conjecture. However the existance of the language itself is not at stake, and apparently falls into forsaken's "Secondary" language category according to the lore. Baggins 14:26, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

I changed the last sentence under The Lost Common from "The designers argue..." back to "Others argue" because although the designers clearly stated what their rationale behind the change was they certainly never argued that there shouldn't or couldn't be an explanation for it in terms of lore. As I said I also believe that we shouldn't try to explain the language barrier in terms of lore but despite of this we shouldn't put words into the mouths of the developers. They said why they made the change but not that there absolutely can't be any lore explanation for it. They just didn't give any. --Foogray 14:33, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

I agree. The inclusion of the blood elves in the Horde is very likely driven by game balance goals, but it becomes part of the lore. In many cases, game mechanics drive lore.--Aeleas 14:37, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

I've always attributed it to brain rot, and forsaken forgetting their common language. Atleast that's how I deal with it in the RP sense. There is no doubt that Gutterspeak is an actual language now lore wise, it just obviously doesn't mean that lore wise there is no way, no how, that they can't speak common. I honestly say it's a choice they made just not to speak it, for whatever reason. Anyhow, any theories about the SSSSSSSS? It's been popular belief on my server, that when one speaks in their own native tongue, it sounds normal human speech, however when you speak in common or orcish (and you aren't a Human/Orc), weird accents and traits come through like Trolls' 'mon, and Undead hisses. --Valkors

There is actually a similar gameplay mechanic issue in the game related to forsaken, forsaken players are classified as humanoids, and can be affected by spells that only affect humanoids, and other player races. This was for gameplay reasons, but lore wise no one argues that they are infact undead, and not actually alive. Apparently early on in beta they could be affected by paladin spells, but it apparently proved to unbalance the game. To the best of my knowledge no one has tried to explain why forsaken react differently than standard undead in the game-Baggins 21:55, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

For what it's worth, Caydiem posted her theories on that.

The Forsaken are not bound to the will of the Lich King as are the Scourge, Lorber. A beast and a humanoid are made, physically, of the same material, and operate in the same capacity, but the minds are different -- what works on a beast (say, sleep) may not affect a humanoid due to that difference. The same holds true for Forsaken vs. Undead. The spells do not affect the Forsaken. --Aeleas 23:06, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Aren't forsaken NPCs still categorized as "undead", and affected by paladin spells(ex. Shackle), but not spells that normally affect humanoids? If so what makes an NPC forsaken any different than PC forsaken as far as lore is concerned? I don't personally play a paladin so I don't know how that works-Baggins 23:19, 11 April 2006 (EDT)

Forsaken NPCs are classified as humanoids as well. They can be affected by Polymorph, but not Shackle.--Aeleas 01:19, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

Mind you in older games Polymorph would work on practically any flesh based unit, undead or living, and it wouldn't just turn enemies into sheep, but rather all kinds of small animals. Polymorph only works on "humanoids" in wow to balance the classes.

This is where things actually differ in spin off literature because in those Holy Light spells can still affect undead regardless of where that undead originates, Forsaken still get healed through things like "death coil" for example, but hurt through healing spells, and yet they can still be polyed as well.

Yes I checked you are right poly works on forsaken mobs just as much as forsaken pcs. Looks like mechanics in the game changed since the last time I used poly on any forsaken npcs(I admit it was a very long time ago). Poly will probably work differently in the next Warcraft RTS if one is released as well if balancing demands it. Interesting enough the RPG actually discusses how there are different types of polymorph spells used by mages that affect things differently, one will only work on willing subjects for example(merely changing their physical form), and another type works on enemies(turning them into various kinds of small animals). In WOW we are only given one type of Poly the sheep variety that works only on willing allies(dueling), or enemies(including Mind Controlled allies)

I think I'll avoid discussion of differences of spells in the spin off literature vs. Wow in this wiki topics since it could cause confusion for those trying to learn the mechanics as applied in the Game-Baggins 08:53, 12 April 2006 (EDT)

I see opposition to the faction of people who decided that Gutterspeak was simply an in-game mechanic. Every single event that happens in the game's past must have been supported by lore, and the condition Azeroth (and Outland as well) is in is also determined by lore. The Forsaken and Gutterspeak connection must also have a story behind it.

D Long ownz U (talk) 04:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Separate "real-world" and "lore"

If this page is cleaned up, perhaps its format could include separate sections on "real-world" and "lore" explanations of Gutterspeak.

The language barrier is simply a game mechanic, and no attempt needs to be made to reconcile it in terms of lore. [....] The real-world explanation for the fact that Undead aren't able to to speak Common is simply because the developers don't want players communicating across factions.

If we extend this reasoning, the real-world explanation for the entire WoW is that Blizzard wants to make a lot of money, and therefore lore is not needed. Lore is, however, integral in WoW. It too is a game mechanic; it's what makes the game interesting to play (among other mechanics).

Real-world explanations are useful for understanding Gutterspeak in the same way that a behind-the-scenes documentary is useful to understanding a movie. It's not the story per se, but there are always practical limitations in any fiction, and these limitations usually play an important role in rendering the structure of the fiction, the lore, the storytelling, etc. E.g., War and Peace was originally written as installments for a periodical; regardless of events within the story, you could argue that the story itself is long because Tolstoy, the author, had to add new material every month to maintain his contract with the periodical.

If we keep real-world and lore separate, we may have a clearer understanding of the issues that comprise Gutterspeak.

Nirnegil 17:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)nirnegil

It already has the sections seperated, the official lore is at the top, corrently cited. The game mechanics explanation is at the bottom. Fan explanations and theory are never 'lore', and can not be put into lore sections, only "speculation".Baggins 17:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

speculation

so......gutterspeak is like undercommon, both lower form of Common, spoken by undead or "dark creatures"...... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by M1330 (talk · contr).

• Well there is a distinguishment between Low Common and Gutterspeak. Low Common is more of a feeble-minded version of Common. Ogres are feeble minded, so they adapt Low Common as one of their languages. Gutterspeak, on the other hand, is more of a encrypted version of Common, with small bits of the Dwarvish and Thalassian language embedded in it. D Long ownz U (talk) 03:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I have found the answer!

i have ound the answer why Forsakens can´t speak common, check gutterspeak speculations ^^ Kesmana (talk) 17:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Or mabey They lost it because they are no longer living so there brains are too hurt.Venomclaw (talk) 05:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

(Applaudes Kesmana) Well done. The theory is the exact same as mine. Yes, because, since they were dead, and thus braindead they might have had their minds disoriented. When the person said "chased me out of the village in a language that I no longer understood" he is saying that his mind might have been disoriented between the time of death and the time of rising from the grave as a Forsaken.

Though I support this theory, there are a few minor holes that need to be patched up.

How did they learn Gutterspeak?

An interesting question. If they no longer understood Common, then how could they have understood Gutterspeak from when they rose from the grave? Was there some mage who gave the corpses the ability to understand Gutterspeak when they rise from the dead? Plausable, but highly unlikely. Yes, there could have been someone teaching them, but I don't really see any evidence supporting that.

If their brains were disoriented, how did they remember Gutterspeak?

A quite likely explanation for this question is maybe Sylvannas Windrunner, but she suffered the same sundering as her allies, so it isn't likely they learned Gutterspeak from her. Maybe another explanation is that they remember Gutterspeak from when they were alive. My theory is that the Forsaken that were formerly the nobles of Lordaeron taught it to the other people, as I find it likely nobles have to learn secret languages of rogues outcasts and outlaws. If this is proven true then this may also answer the question above.

D Long ownz U (talk) 04:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Renamed to "Forsaken" in Cataclysm

It would appear that the "Gutterspeak" language has been renamed to simply "Forsaken" in Cataclysm. A quick ride around the Undercity NPC's on PTR has them all speaking in it. Is it perhaps worth changing this page "drastically" to accomodate this? Grissom (talk)

Why... this is the technical name for it... so no reason to make it Forsaken (language). Sssssssssssssssssssssssss For Pony! (^Sssss/_Slithered) 20:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)