Talk:Draenei/Lore/Archive 1

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Dranei:orcs slaughtered my people now I must seek revenge against them all.

Gnome:Didn't your people corrupt one of the titans,create the burning legion and cause the deaths of thousands of races

Dranei:Well yeah but we're trying to repent

Gnome:so are the orcs

Dranei:shut up

Lets put this in real life terms. Lets say theres a family of serial killers(eredar) who murder thousands of people and their families. A benovelent cop(Sargeras) watches this goes insane and becomes a crimelord. Now lets say One part of the serial killer family decides to leave before allying with the insane cop(dranei). They move to the country and make friends with a family of uneducated yokels(orcs). They never tell the yokels of their dark past. One day the Rest of the serial killer family that joined with the insane cop comes over and tricks the yokel family into trying out a drug that makes people go mad. One part of the yokel family declines the drug(Durotan's clan). The crazed yokels burned the ex serial killers house killing most of the family. Years later the uneducated yokel's sons have spent years in rehabiltation,just got a permit out and find out the ex serial killer family wants revenge on them.

Now whos the badguy? Can't the exserial killer family who killed more, forgive the yokel familys kids? --Blarg the gnome

Man you're taking the eredar for the Nathrezim. Those who corrupted Sargeras were the Dreadlords (Nathrezim) which corrupted Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde. Now please put more thought in what you say.--Kirochi 08:27, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

I have the following suggestions: 1) as Kirochi mentions, pay more attention to retcons- the Eredar were corrupted by Sargeras, not the other way around 2) The Draenei are no more hypocrites than any other race are, as many humans still hate the orcs, trolls hate elves, night elves hate magic, etc. 3) I lost you in after the first use of "yokel"- if you'd kept it in game terms, it would have been easier 4) SIGN YOUR COMMENTS!!!!!!!! --Ragestorm 11:30, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

Draenei were welcomed by the orcs when they invaded Draenor. Yet they told them nothing of the burning legion. They should apologise to the orcs for luring the burning legion and causing the enslavement of the orcs and ruining of their beatiful planet. If the Draenei can forget about the sins they did why can't they forget about the sins the orcs did? --Blarg the gnome

Does the phrase "SIGN YOUR COMMENTS" mean nothing to you? In the Draenei's defense, they thought they were safe- it was essentially a fluke that Kil'jaeden even found the planet, and in light of the War of the Ancients books, he may have been looking for the orcs, not the Draenei. Although, to agree with you, it is childish of the Draenei (and the humans) to continually blame the orcs for their actions as pawns of the Legion- Thrall would be more than willing to issue an apology, I'm certain, but the humans (with the exception of Theramore and Dalaran) are too pig-headed to take it, and the Draenei can't drop a grudge. --Ragestorm 14:05, 14 May 2006 (EDT)

What are your thoughts on the less-than-neutral-sounding changes Blarg the gnome has just made to the article? Cornprone 20:22, 23 May 2006 (EDT)

I think whoever deleted those changes deserves free food and goods for the rest of his life, and that the Gnome should apologize to all WoWwiki members.--Kirochi 04:30, 24 May 2006 (EDT)

THanks to the above- the matter no longer applicable, now that a stalwart editor has restored relative neutrality. This is a valuable lesson as to why Wikipedia, and most related sites, are not considered quotable sources- all it takes is one biased user, in spite of the legions that strive to make sites such are ours encyclopedic and excellent.

And now that my moment of Zen is over, we return, to our regularly scheduled talk page. --Ragestorm 07:09, 24 May 2006 (EDT)

I see no one really responded to what I said about Draenei. Can't anyone at least try and write counter argument? Blarg the gnome

Well, I do agree with you, Draenei kinda lured the Burning Legion to Draenor, but what should they've done ? Become warlocks as well so they wouldn't be accused by you to be as responsible for the Orcs' corruption as the Burning Legion ? Tell the truth to the Orcs so they'd expel them and start to hunt and kill them even before being corrupted ? Start a 1 against 2 thirds of the population war, or even less ? And, most of all, forgive the Orcs for having bowed to the Burning Legion and slaying them all ?--Kirochi 18:50, 24 May 2006 (EDT)

The new horde is as against Fel orcs as the Draenei are. A great deal of the orcs in the new horde are Frostwolf orcs who never became corrupted and hurt Draenei in the first place. Can ‘t they just let bygones be bygones or do they have to be hypocritical maniacs. I bet Thrall would even apologize to the Draenei(even though its them who should be apologizing for luring the burning legion to Draenor and not telling them a thing about the burning legion). They almost made the same mistakes as the orcs. Velen was this close to joining Sargeras if he hadn’t got that vision of the future(which the orcs were not lucky enough to recieve) he would have joined! An excon who is repenting has no right to wish death upon another Excon who is also repenting. Blarg the gnome

The one thing in Blarg's statement I question (I agree that it's stupid, the orcs were being manipulated, and most of the orcs from that generation are now dead, so the Draenei should just forget) is: how do we know Kil'jaeden was lured to Draenor just by the Draenei being there? I haven't seen anything that says "but the very existence of the Draenei led the Deciever to discover their sanctuary" or anything like that. Also, Kil'jaeden and Mannoroth were the only demons of power to physically set foot on the planet, so it's possible that the Draenei didn't even recognize the Legion's presence at all (that's why he's called "the Deciever"), until it was far too late to do anything. And the shamans did have a vague idea of what would happen, but Durotan was the only chieftan who realized they were right. --Ragestorm 05:49, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

Accusing Draenei for luring Kil'Jaden to Draenor and corrupting Orcs is simply stupid. They did what they could not to be detected by the Legion, they didn't use magic and so on. Even if they did join Burning Legion, does that mean Orcs would be safe? Hello? Burning Crusade is known for... hmm... destroying worlds maybe? What makes Orcs so special to make you, Blarg, think that the sole presence of Draenei lured the corruption upon them? I could go opposite and say that pressence of Draenei actually saved Orcs, as there would be no reason to corrupt them and send them against Draenei, so they all would be killed. Does my point make any sence? Well, your neither. And what makes you so sure about Draenei hate against Orcs? Well, i wouldn't be happy knowing that a race that slaughtered 80% of my kind is a vast population of a world i've just crashed on, but that doesn't mean they are going to kill any Orc they see. They joined alliance for more reasons then just Orcs, they pray to the Light, Blood Elves are thier natural enemy (after sabotaging Exodar) etc. --Nea 10:00, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

The Legion was following the Draenei,they led them straight to Draenor and didn't tell them a thing. How did the Draenei save the orcs if anything they doomed them. And what I guess the Draenei want to kill all orcs now huh including Durotan's clan who didn't lay a finger on them. Also acording to Metzen on the forums,it was the demonic blood elves on draenor that stole their dumb spaceship. And the Draneis relatives killed most of the creatures in the universe and its the draeneis own fault for luring the buring legion that they got killed. If anything they should apologise to the orcs for ruining a planet that they didn't even own. Blarg the gnome

OK, this is getting out of hand. Most of us appear to agree that any residual hatred of the orcs is unfounded. Once again, I ask that you point me to the source for the fact that the Draenei lured Kil'jaeden to the planet. Once again, I point out that it was Kil'jaeden alone who acted on the planet, not the Legion as a whole. And now a new question: Blarg, have you actually read the racial description on the website? Nowhere does it say that the Draenei lured the Deciver to the Red World- and it clearly established that the two species had little contact, so Draenei probably didn't notice the corruption until they were already being slaughtered. I must also inform you that your attempts to place your opinions into the main article will continue to be met with stiff resistance.--Ragestorm 19:47, 25 May 2006 (EDT)

"If they hadn’t come to Draenor the Burning legion would not have found the orcs and Draenor would still be in one piece." - again, what makes Draenor so special, to make you think it would be safe? There is no such thing as safe world in Warcraft universe, becose Burning Legion is traveling from one to another destroying them all, sooner or later they would come to Draenor and destroy it too, with or without Draenei. Kil'Jaeden didn't follow Draenei, he had no idea where they are so he was searching for them for few good thousands of years. And no, it wasn't thier fault they were attacked, it wasn't Poland's fault that Hitler started WW2, see the pattern? --Nea 03:54, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

Blarg, your original argument is already somewhat flawed. The Draenei are not trying to repent, because they never joined the Legion in the first place (those under Velen I mean). The orcs, on the other hand, as Hellscream mentions, gave themselves over to the demons willingly. Plus, don't you get the idea of a blood feud, a racial grudge, whatever you call it? Some things are just too hard to forgive. Ever notice how cold China is to Japan? Althought it's already half a century after WWII? (unsigned, despite many earlier and late references to the proper signing of comments)

The orcs were guilty of being ignorant not evil. Velen was this close to joining Sargeras if he hadn’t got that vision of the future(which the orcs were not lucky enough to recieve) he would have joined! The fact is most of the orcs in the horde are frostwolf orcs or young orcs who never set foot on draenor let alone see a Draenei. The Dranei are guilty of dooming Draenor and once again Durotan's clan never laid a finger on them yet they still want to kill them. Sigh this is the worst lore ever. [Blarg the gnome]

No, remember what Hellscream said. They gave themselves over to the demons willingly in exchange for power. Hellscream himself did it twice - once in the first corruption of the orcs and again in the second invasion of the Legion, even after he knew of the evil of the demons. And as I said, human - or Draenei - behaviour can be irrational. If someone killed your entire family/friends/loved ones, wouldn't you want to kill him? Even if it was 50 years ago or something? Grudges and feuds take very long to resolve. You have to understand that it is extremely hard to forgive some things. --Durbathuluk

I would argue with you more, but you are too mind closed Blarg. I would bring some history based examples showing how wrong are you and how relative your morality is, but it would be just a waste of time. The lore is fine, your interpretation is not. --Nea 05:57, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

The orcs didn't even know what a demon was back then. They were just simple people who knew very little about the world. Besides Velen almost did the same thing. And its not like China is calling for the Death of every Japanese man including the ones who opposed the war. And the Draenei caused the death of an enitre planet by leading the Legion right to Draenor,not telling the orcs of the legion and not doing a thing to help the orcs. Quit Avoiding the facts that the Frost wolves never touched the draenei and opposed what the fel orcs did,or that Velen almost joined the legion however unlike the orcs he got a vision,or that their relatives destroy many world,most orcs in the new horde are young or are frost wolves,Many Draenei in outland once again joined the legion. the Face it Draenei lore sucks and it should have been pandaren or ogres. User: Blarg The Gnome

You want us to see you point of of view? very well. On the following points I agree wholeheartedly with you:

• Velen did indeed almost join the Legion, and probably would have if he hadn't recieved that vision.
• Frost Wolves never joined the bloodthirsty demon Horde.
• Most living orcs are too young to have been corrupted or had fond memories of the older Hordes, and those who are old enough are those shamans Durotan saved.
• The Draenei offshoots in Outland have come to serve the Legion, if Illidan is still Kil'jaeden's servant.

Now, for what I disagree with.

• NOWHERE, IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM DOES IT SAY THE DRAENEI LURED THE LEGION TO THE PLANET- IT HAS NEVER BEEN ESTABLISHED HOW KIL'JAEDEN FOUND THEM.
• How many Frostwolves do you think there are? they can't make up more than a third of the orcs' current population.
• The webpage for the Draenei clearly states that the two races kept to themselves. If Kil'jaeden was the only demon, or one of the very few, on the planet, the Draenei would never have known.
• You can't really consider the Broken or the Lost Ones Draenei anymore, and anyway, they may be too young to remember Argus and what happened there.

Lastly, is your name Chris Metzen? are you employed by Blizzard Entertainment's writing or development departments? What make you think you have a better qualification to say a race works or doesn't work than Metzen and his crew, who created this universe? --Ragestorm 16:54, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

The orcs didn't even know what a demon was back then. Which is pretty much against you.

Dreanei: hey guys Orcs: wah, who you be? Draenei: oh, we just came here with our dimensional ship, running away from demonic army led by an evil Titan who is obsessed to destroy the entire universe. Orcs: dude, weed is bad. And the Draenei caused the death of an enitre planet by leading the Legion (...) Do you even read what people write here? It was mentioned already n times that it wasn't Legion, but Kil'Jaeden on his personal task to hunt Draenei, and there is no way Draenei led him to Draenor. You could say so IF they used magic on Draenor (that way Night Elves lured Legion to Azeroth), but the point is - they didn't, and it's cleary mentioned in the lore.(unsigned)

Okay what lures Demons,ARCANE MAGIC which is used by warlock And MAGES,which is A DRAENEI class. And we know orcs only had shamans back then and no warlocks, who else lured then but the draeneis use of Arcane Magic. And the Draenei could of easily just told the orcs what a demon was and why not to ally with them. Instead they lured the legion over with their ARCANE MAGIC,told NOTHING TO THE ORCS,AND NOW WANT REVENGE AGAINST THEM FOR something the DRAENEI THEMSELVES ARE RESPONISIBLE FOR. Kil'Jaden was also Following them and they Led him Straight to Draenor. Blarg the gnome

You guys have got to calm down over this. We haven't exactly got a solid basis to go off at the moment, and there's really no need shout at each other. Blarg, can you please comment your comments properly so we can see when you made them (using ~ ~ ~ ~ without the spaces)

On topic, Blarg what is up with your world view? How have you decided that the Draenei were malevolent in what they did? You have no evidence to back that up, and there's also the fact the Draenei are an incredibly 'pure' light-following race. Hardly the type of people to use demons to get their way. -- Kirkburn 18:42, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

Oh, and please stop putting your biased views on the main article page - it's incredibly annoying and close to vandalism. If you can convince us of your views, then you can add it without it being remove immediately. You are not spokesperson for the majority of players, if you can at least get that into your head it'll be a start. -- Kirkburn 18:57, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

OK, we really need to move this to another talk page, I'm getting the 32 KB long warning. And all of our disagreements will be settled when Rise of the Horde finally comes out- but like I said, another talk page. --Ragestorm 19:06, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

How the Heck did I vandalise the article Kirkburn. All I wrote today was that many people like me were upset by the new lore, are you saying not a single person in the entire world was upset by it? And the Draenei are not a pure race,no race is, I think their belief in the light is more akin to the Evil Scarlet crusade then Tiron fordring. Blarg the gnome

Fact:

At last Velen and his draenei settled upon a remote and peaceful world that seemed an ideal refuge. They named it Draenor, or "Exiles' Refuge", and there they quietly cultivated their society once again. Ever wary of being discovered again by Kil'jaeden's forces, Velen and his mystics kept their magics hidden for generations. I win? If you want to complain about the lore, read it first please. --Nea 20:08, 29 May 2006 (EDT)

What makes they could hide the magic perfectly. The burning legion can always track arcane magic. It probably means they didn't do it out in the open,it doesn't say they used some kind of super magic to keep the legion from tracking theier arcane power. Unless they used some fancy ruins stoneslike the high elves the burning legion was bound to find them. They probably made some slip allowing the legion to find Draenor. Either way the world didn't belong to them,they treated all its inhabitants(orcs,ogres) like garbage and they seek genocide againt an innocent race who welcomed the Draenei to their planet.Also quit being a smug jerk it makes you look bad Blarg the gnome

Lol, and you call the Draenei hypocrites. You didn't read what I said about commenting your comments properly - please do so (4x '~'), and you have vandalised the article in the past. This is the place for biased opinions, not the article. Not only that, but you're attempting to twist my words - I didn't say that you are alone in your thoughts, only that most players don't know/couldn't care less/disagree with you.

I find it funny how you seem to know more about Draenei history than anyone else, even Blizzard. Blizzard themselves describe the Draenei as a very pure race - the misguided Scarlet Crusade killed innocent civilians, I don't see the Draenei doing that anywhere. You've also decided that they lured the Legion to Draenor - how, exactly did you come to this conclusion? They would have 'lured' the legion to wherever they went, because the Legion is going ... yes ... everywhere. When you're on the run from someone, why the hell would you try and get them to come to you!

And furthermore, since when did the Draenei attempt genocide or suchlike? I had this strange view that it was in fact the orcs who attempted this, given that that's what Blizzard have told us. But perhaps I don't have the same twisted sources as you... seriously, you have gotta read the lore again if you believe what you're saying to be true -- Kirkburn 03:10, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Okey dokey, I see this war is really flaring up. Let me remind you, Blarg, for the third time, of the existence of grudges. Grudges exist, almost everyone has them, it's next to impossible to do anything about them. I read the lore carefully and can confirm completely for everyone here that it was indeed the Draenei who attracted the Legion's attention. Still, I think it wasn't totally their fault. What would you expect them to do? Sit around and get slaughtered? Run from the Legion for eternity until they run out of resources? Please, Blarg, consider these points carefully. Do not just skim through this. Read and comprehend. Counter-argue if desired. -- Durbathuluk

Ok, since Blarg has never actually given information beyond the "Draenei use arcane magic" statment, could Durbathuluk please point me to to the source that establishes that the Leigon was lured to Draenor by the Draenei? That piecce of evidence seems at the core of the matter. --Ragestorm 11:40, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

"What makes they could hide the magic perfectly." High Elves were addicted to magic, they HAD to use it so they masked it with rune stones. Draenei on the other hand could simply not use the magic anymore. And yes, it would still make sence for them to have mages in BC since it's been some time since Draenor exploded (Orcs managed to return to thier shamanizm after being corrupted for 2 wars). That's just my guess, but whatever they did, it's said that did keep it hidden for generations, that's a bit longer then it took the Legion to invade the Azeroth after Sargeras felt NE highborne using magic. Despite of this, I actually wasted some of my life (already wasted enough arugeing here :p) and found a fact that simply destroy your theory about Draenei luring Legion or Kil'Jaeden to Draenor:

"Kil'jaeden surmised that he needed a new force to weaken Azeroth's defenses before the Legion even set foot upon the world. If the mortal races, such as the night elves and dragons, were forced to contend with a new threat, they would be too weak to pose any real resistance when the Legion's true invasion arrived.

It was at this time that Kil'jaeden discovered the lush world of Draenor floating peacefully within the Great Dark Beyond. Home to the shamanistic, clan-based orcs and the peaceful draenei, Draenor was as idyllic as it was vast. The noble orc clans roamed the open prairies and hunted for sport, while the inquisitive draenei built crude cities within the world's towering cliffs and peaks. Kil'jaeden knew that Draenor's denizens had great potential to serve the Burning Legion if they could be cultivated properly."

Taken from Chapter 3 of WoW story. Now this was written before current Draenei lore was introduced, so it doesn't say anything about Kil'Jaeden wanting to destroy Draenei, yet it's show cleary that it was pure luck for him. And Draenei are not guilty of anything, Orcs would be corrupted anyway. I win, again? --Nea 16:05, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

So, heres whats flawed in the argument presented by the Gnome

1.) "Lures" implies they were attempting to attract the Legion to the world. Which from my interpretation of the Gnomes argument, would serve what purpose? Damage the Orcs somehow? 2.) Where on earth does it say they were cruel to the other races of the planet? 3.) Can you prove that Kil'jaeden discovered them because of their magic, which they ever so cunningly used to lure the Legion mind you. 4.) If a race attacked and decimated a race, even though perhaps they were being manipulated, it isnt understandable to perhaps, have some sort grudge against them. And taking that note further, it is stated that the Orcs willingly gave themselves over to Corruption for power. 5.) And using the fact that Velen might have joined the other Eredar cant be used as defense of why the Dranei are evil/bad. Just as Velen decided to lead his people down a different path, so did Kael lead most of the High Borne over to the Blood Elves. Are we to assume those that didnt follow Kael are just as bad as the Blood Elves? 6.) Most of your points, meaning the Gnomes, are based off logical fallicies. Argue smarter, read more, continue the topic. Archadius 18:56, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

How do we know that lore on the main page is still right? The Draenei are a different race from what they were before,they went from peacefull farmers to eredar space paladins/ After all they completly changed the draenei from Shamans to Paladins and they made Sargeras corrupt Eredar despite the fact that on the previous main page it said Eredar corrupted Sargeras. what makes you think the old lore on the site is still right. We won't really know until "Rise of the horde" comes out.I'l have a longer response writen out later

Blarg

Good god, Metzen's beating himself up enough as it is- he didn't decide to change everything on a whim, he just didn't check all the details (some of us are more than familiar with that error)- you're acting like they did this just to be childish- they have been busy designing an entire world, a lore change like this is the least of their worries. They are not being paid just to satisfy the player's views and opinions- frankly, they don't care what you think of the Draenei. On a different note from this whole conversation, what exactly is the problem with incorperating a few sci-fi elements into fantasy? --Ragestorm 20:57, 30 May 2006 (EDT)

Okay, to end the argument on Draenei luring the Legion once and for all, based on the most recent retcon at http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/townhall/draenei.html,

Ever wary of being discovered again by Kil'jaeden's forces, Velen and his mystics kept their magics hidden for generations...In spite of the draenei's caution, Kil'jaeden discovered their secret refuge on Draenor. He learned more of the world and its inhabitants, and he grew intrigued by the mighty orc race. A plan unfolded in his mind, and the demon lord began to laugh. He could see precisely how to mold the orcs into the instrument of his wrath. It was merely a matter of time and pressure. Okay, I realise it doesn't explicitly state that it was completely the Draenei's fault, but I think it's a safe assumption that Blarg interpretes it that way. Even so, as has been pointed out, it wasn't because the Draenei lured the Legion with malicious intent. It was an accident of sorts, it wasn't really their fault. So the Draenei are not being hypocritical, Blarg. Thank you. - Durbathuluk

"In spite of the draenei's caution, Kil'jaeden discovered their secret refuge on Draenor." It doesn't say HOW Kil'Jaeden discovered Draenor and if Draenei presence in any way affected it. I doesn't negate the theory, but it doesn't confirm it as well. Also, considering old WoW lore, Kil'Jaeden was already looking for a power that would bring havoc to Azeroth, and if he could take care of Draenei on the way - why not? So to summ facts up:

1. We don't know how Kil'Jaeden discovered Draenor.
2. Orcs would be corrupted anyway to land an attack on Azeroth.

Are Draenei to blame? They could have warned the Orcs, but we don't really know muh (yet) about thier relations in that time, so argueing about it is also quite pointless too. That's pretty much EOT for me. --Nea 10:25, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

I never said they lured the Burning legion there on purpose,I'm just saying its wrong for them to use orcs as a scapegoat for all their problems. I'll have a longer reply written out later,on what I would have done in their situation. And to answer Ragestorm's question,no I'm not blaming Metzen,I'm thankfull that he created a fantasy world that was new and orginal. Its my opinion that he was pushed to do this new race, by marketing, who thought people would like to play as Archimonde. --Blarg the gnome

While I appreciate that you will provide us with a longer response, I must point out that the Draenei are not using the orcs as their scapegoat- they have issues with the Blood Elves, too. --Ragestorm 16:31, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

Metzen said that the Blood elves that stole the Draenei spaceship are part of Illidan's forces not the horde's. Thats like blaming all irish people because a couple of Irish Americans man stole your car.

Blarg the gnome

Well, the Draenei are probably not well-informed. Although, both factions of Blood Elves seek arcane power by any means needed, and Grand Magister Rommath, a disciple of Kael'thas, is the currently leader of the Sin'Dorei mages. --Ragestorm 20:22, 31 May 2006 (EDT)

Scapegoat? *raised eyebrow* Do you even understand the meaning of the word "scapegoat"? The Draenei are not using the orcs as scapegoats, in case you don't know. They are holding the orcs responsible for the destruction of their race, but that isn't the definition of "scapegoat". Pick your words with care. And get the existence of this term through your head - RACIAL GRUDGE!!! --Durbathuluk

So you can gain a grasp on how racial grudges work, my grandfather was at Pearl Harbor, and to this day, he doesnt trust the Japanese, it's a shame he doesnt know who made his television... Plus, what are the chances a race crashes on a planet and says, "so, these orcs here, are they the same as the ones who slaughtered my race? And these Elves, are they the same ones who sabotaged our ship?"

--Archadius 21:54, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

Heres a list of what Draenei did and what they should have done

Finding a home planet

Should have:Found a planet without other intelligent life so not to endanger other life forms, for the burning legion has a specific interest in them

what they did:Found a heavily occupied planet and claimed as their own. Forgetting that the burning legion is following them and they just led them to a new planet to exploit.

Warning the races of Draenor about the Burning legion

Should have:Told the orcs &ogres that their is a race of creatures that look alot like them are going around destroying world and they are following them. Tell the orcs & ogres never to contact these creatures and to go to them for help.

what they did:Told them nothing at all about the danger looking for the draenei.

Finding out the orcs settled on Azeroth and are now free Should have:Realised that the past is the past and it would be wrong to seek the orc’s destruction,most orcs are now young or part of the frostwolf clan which never hurt them and strongly oppose fel orcs.. Realise after all they almost joined the burning legion too however they were lucky enough to be warned,many of their relatives are still part of the burning legion and orcs were very kind to them before they were fooled into drinking the blood of Mannoroth. After all wasn’t it them who the burning legion was following and the Legion followed them to Draenor. Isn’t it partly their fault for not saying a thing about the legion and using Arcane magic,after all weren’t the orcs instrumental in defeating Archimonde. So the best thing to do would just be to just leave the orcs alone or make amends.

what they did:Decided to Kill All Orcs including the Frostwolf clan to get their petty revenge for something the orcs had little control over, and repented for.

Alright thats my final word for now. I'll talk more when Rise of the horde comes out. "Blarg the gnome"

*sigh* If only you'd heard of formatting to go with your odd ideas ...

Found a heavily occupied planet and claimed as their own - No they didn't.

Forgetting that the burning legion is following them - Huh? That's just plain stupid.

Told them nothing at all about the danger looking for the draenei. - And what makes you say they didn't try?

And then we jump onto part two ...

Should have:Realised that the past is the past and it would be wrong to seek the orc’s destruction - Let me make this clear. The aim of the alliance is NOT to wipe the other races from the planet.

Many of the orcs that are alive now were once under the curse, the Draenei have no reason to automatically trust them. They've just arrived on Azeroth, they need friends - who are they most likely to side with. Previous enemies, or people who have the same belief system as you (the Light)?

You cannot just say 'that's my final word' as if that makes it all okay, y'know. One sided discussion just isn't fun -- Kirkburn 17:59, 2 June 2006 (EDT)

I'm done for now. Oh and read my points more carefully Kirkburn and think about them. The Draenei have no right to persecute the orcs. Don't just skim through them. The Draenei have no right to persecute the orcs. If the Draenei had just warned them about the legion Draenor would still be safe. And the orcs welcomed and treated the Draenei with the respect, when the Draenei came to an alien world that did not belong to them. "Blarg the gnome"

Who says they are persecuting the Orcs? We don't know how the Draenei joining the Alliance even feel about them at the moment. And if they had warned them, Draenor would be safe? How? The Burning Legion would've eventually have found Draenor and plowed them under.. (also, sorry if I make any errors in making this, this is my first time doing so) -- Maenos 03:27, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Hmm...you have a point, Blarg, in the idea of finding an unoccupied planet. Still, as I've mentioned three times already, RACIAL GRUDGES do exist. Human (or Draenei) behaviour is irrational. "Let bygones be bygones" is a good policy, but how often do you see anyone actually doing it? -- Durbathuluk

I still don't understand why he thinks the Draenei are persecuting the orcs ... and Blarg, I'm perfectly capable of reading your points, but are you capable of reading mine? It doesn't seem like it as I rebuffed the whole 'persecution' thing already. Warning the orcs (which they may or may not have attempted, as I've already said) would not have suddenly made Draenor 'safe', it's stupid to think otherwise. The Draenei have no reason to trust orcs, but they do have reason to trust the alliance, thus have joined them. -- Kirkburn 06:55, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

One point struck me: the Draenei and the Eredar actually not really identical, as Blarg once claimed. Yet again, I reference the clearly stated fact that the Orcs and the Draenei kept to themselves. I agree with Kirkburn; telling the orcs evrything they knew about the LEgion (which may not actually have been very much) might not have helped. It wouldn't have stopped Gul'dan from making his pact with Kil'jaeden, which is the real catalyst for the corruption of the orcs. And how are the Draenei persecuting the orcs?

If the draenei had just told the orcs about the demons,the orcs would know Mannoroth was evil and not have drunk his blood,therefore not getting corrupted and not abandoning shamanism. And the Draenei are going to be able to attack Durotans clan in Alterac who never layed a finger on them and was againt the war against the Draenei. "Blarg the gnome"

Assuming, of course, the Draenei even knew Mannoroth existed. As far as I know, there have been no retcons that change that Archimonde was the one who drafted the Pit Lords into the Legion, and that would have happened after the Draenei fled Argus. Now we get into what's going to be covered in "Rise of the Horde." Anyway, Gul'dan didn't have to tell the chieftains that it was the blood of a demon- he could have just said it was a potion he mixed to make them great warriors or something.

And unless I'm very much mistaken, the battleground instance in Alterac is something that ALL players may access- you certainly can't say it's evidence of persecution, since members of all ten races will be taking part.--Ragestorm 12:26, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Finanaly an intelligent response. Anyway even Nerz'hul was scared by Kil'jaden,if he knew what a demon was and that they enslaved worlds in the very beggining, I doubt he would have even responded to Kil'jaden,after all no sane person wants a bunch of insane planet destroying aliens enslaving your people. Infact they probably would have even told the draenei,that they were contacted by the burning legion. At the very least,fewer orcs wouldn't have been enslaved by the Burning legion. And its still wrong for the draenei to mistreat the orcs,after all the orcs welcomed them to their planet when many races would have kicked them,the Draenei should at least let the orcs be instead they believe in the destruction of the orcs including Durotan's clan. Its wrong for them to war against the orcs forgetting about all the good things the orcs did. Anyway I can't spend my whole week like this,I have other things to do. "Blarg the gnome"

The orcs knew well they are drinking demonic blood, and they well knew that demons are really evil. They were seduced by the power they were offered. Grom tells Thrall that all Orc chieftains drank Mannoroth's blood willingly on Draenor, which Thrall is not too happy about. Check out the dialogoue files in WE. I'd like to add, that the horde only took over all of Draenor after slaughtering all of the Draenei. When the Draenei came, the orcs were just a number of shamanistic tribes living around Nagrand (said to be the original orc homeland). The Draenei came in, they settled in some empty land and met the orcs, and were friedly and lived peacefully. Remember they thought that Draenor is the perfect refuge for them, and I'm sure that's for a reasons. The planet was probably hidden away in distant parts of the universe, maybe it was somehow invisible in the Twisting Nether; whatever the reason is, the Draenei thought taht the Legion won't find them here. So why would they start going around the wild orcish tribes and warning them against terrible legions of demons, and they need to fight them, blah blah. Also, there was no "horde" at the time, only scattered tribes, as said. When Kil'Jaeden somehow found the world and saw the orcs, his plan would rather be not to reveal himself, so Draenei stuck to the idea everything's fine. Then Kil'Jeaden would corrupt Gul'Dan, who then offered great power to the orcs through drinking demonic blood, and they all willingly agreed. Velen didn't know until a horde of mad red-skinned beasts started running accross his lands, burning and killing as they went. Draenei, cought completely unprepared, were slaughtered. Now, would the Draenei go "aww, poor beasts, we need to free them from the demons", or "THOSE F^#!%RS KILLED MY FAMILY!!!". The first is not an option, since the orcs gave themselves in willingly. Obviously the second is the only choice left. Somehow though, I feel they'd chose the second one anyway. For some reason. Now the orcs are trying to repent, but the humans still hate them, apart from Jaina who is pretty young and she only saw their good side, and managed to understand that their bad side is gone therefore. Proudmoore saw the slaughter, the rape, the death, and the orcs never got a proper punishment for it, only a scar on their honor after being imprisoned for what, ten years? There's no reason for both humans and the Draenei to make peace with the orcs, even though they want to repent. We'll see stuff in detail when Rise of the Horde comes out, but your arguments seem just... not right. As another note, who wants to bet that the Alliance Expedition and Khadgar are connected to Draenei joining the Alliance? :P --Tysar 14:35, 3 June 2006 (EDT)

Obviously you ignored most of what I said and skimmed through the lore. I don't really feel the need to respond to such a moronic post. Ciao "Blarg the gnome: