Talk:Hakkari

This is called a faction by the Troll Compendium and not a tribe.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 03:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Its called a tribe in game, Coins of the Tribes includes the Hakkari tribe coins. Also lest you didn't notice, the Troll Compendium article while calling them factions still has them listed under the "Troll tribe" article implying they are a type of tribe.Baggins (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

On the Troll Compendium issue, you are making it up that it is implied that they are a tribe. Can you say Strawman?  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Rolandius, do you even know what a straw man argument is? Because what Baggins said certainly doesn't qualify, nor was he simply "making up" what was implied. He may have interpreted it that way, but that's different than making it up wholesale. Incidentally, the Troll Compendium seems to make it clear that the Hakkari, at least in their current incarnation, are not a tribe: "Below you can learn more about the various groups of jungle trolls: the Bloodscalp tribe, the Darkspear tribe, the Gurubashi tribe, the Shatterspear tribe, and the Skullsplitter tribe, as well as the Atal'ai and Hakkari factions." -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 05:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to throw in Strawman since he likes that word. That is what I am saying to him. They are factions. Also when it lists known tribes they are not included. They also are simply called The Hakkari and The Atal'ai.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Anything more recent than the compendium? Dark factions has a section on these guys, doesn't it?Tweak the Whacked (talk) 05:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Well Baggins said in an older post that he found the Atal'ai, and maybe Hakkari, were not tribes in Dark Factions I believe. I guess he changed his mind though.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:36, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe what he said was that the Atal'ai was a radical cult with in the hakkari. That seems to lend more credit to the hakkari being a tribe itself. Maybe it is a faction, but being a faction doesn't stop something from being a tribe.Tweak the Whacked (talk) 05:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily. And like I said, Blizzard's Troll Compendium seems to differentiate them rather clearly. The top of the Jungle Trolls Tribes page refers to them as factions, separately from the other tribes, and furthermore does not include the word "Tribe" in their section headers as it does with the others. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 05:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but then the Troll Compendium says they are factions only.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 05:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Dark Factions was unclear on if it was a tribe or not. It wasn't until I discovered the ingame quest references to "tribe" that I dropped my questions against it being a tribe. I can't argue with specific references to them being tribes if they exist. being a tribe and being a faction isn't mutually exclusive both can be right. Just look at the Zandalar tribe. Its a tribe and a faciton at the same time. Correction Troll compendium doesn't say "factions only" on the contrary it has them listed under the category of "Troll tribes" perhaps its paradoxal categorization but its still a categorization in the compendium.Baggins (talk) 06:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep trying. The Zanadalar Tribe is said to be a tribe and faction in Dark Factions like you said. The Hakkari and Atal'ai are said to be a faction though. In the compendium you are just assuming they are tribes.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 06:55, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Look your the one that seems to be overlooking the title of the article,"JUngle Troll Tribes" [1]. If tghe article name is Jungle Troll Tribes then its certainly talking about Jujngle Troll Tribes, even if it doesn't call those other tribes specifically "tribes". HOwever, its irrelevent how you interpret the compendium since ingame its confirmes that they are tribes.Baggins (talk) 07:01, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Well Dark T Zeratul agrees with me. They are not going to make a page called "Jungle Troll non-Tribes" so they put it under that. On top of that page they explain those two are factions. Also like someone pointed out to me earlier, just because one NPC says a word doesn't mean it is solid evidence. Look at the Dark Iron empire page I tried to make.  Rolandius  (talk - contr) 07:04, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

A single NPC? Shows how much you know... There are at least five quests that mention the "Atal'ai tribe" infact pretty much every time the Atal'ai are mentioned in game they are called a tribe, or the great civilization in game.Baggins (talk) 08:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

From looking in Dark Faction, both Hakkari and Atal'ai are described as "groups of evil troll priests". Indeed, the Atal'ai are described an an extremist faction of Hakkari. It's certainly worthy enough to warrant discussing - possibly even on the articles. Kirkburn  talk  contr 14:16, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I hate to say this Baggins, since I know you're one of the more senior and respected editors here, but it almost seems like you're stubbornly ignoring any evidence to the contrary on this issue. Dark Factions describes them as groups and/or factions rather than tribes. The Troll Compendium specifically singles them out as factions - among every single other tribe in the entire article. Everything on the Sand, Ice, and Forest Troll Tribes page has "Tribe" in its name. Everything on the Jungle Troll Tribe page as well... EXCEPT those two. It seems fairly clear to me that there's a reason for that distinction, and to just ignore it because they're listed alongside the jungle troll tribes rather than on their own separate page seems rather silly. Yes, there are a handful of NPCs and quests that call them tribes, but there's also fairly strong evidence from Dark Factions and the Compendium that they're not. Like Kirkburn siad, this clearly warrants discussion, especially if you appear to be the only one arguing the tribes point of view. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 21:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Having tribes within tribes or clans within clans isn't necessarily contradiction of course. Death's Head tribe is within the Razerfen tribe, apparently. The Stonefist clan and the Stormpike clan are witin the Bronzebeard clan... An unknown number of clans are within the Wildhammer clans, etc. If one looks at murloc culure, there are many tribes within a clan. Yes notes in the article, a speculation section would be handy, and is needed. However there isn't necessarily a huge conflict going on here.

Of course another possiblity is that current Atal'ai has members that originated out of the original clan, who joined the Hakkari and then created the subfaction within the Hakkari.

Also if you haven't been keeping track several of the quests were updated to fit into the TBC Broken quest lines. These updated quests still mention the Atal'ai tribe and civilization. Those updates were made long after the Troll Compendium was released, and after Dark Factions was written actually (the editor mentioned that the book was finished back in 2006 or so, before the release of the Naxxrasmmas patch), long before the TBC 2.01 patch updates. If the game designers had intended something different they could have easily changed it in game.

Of course this implies that the game designrs and the website creators aren't necessarily the same people,and have given more than one possible interpretation about them.Baggins (talk) 21:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

This certainly sounds like enough to warrant discussion on the article. Kirkburn  talk  contr 23:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, a speculation /notes seciton is needed.Baggins (talk) 00:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Revitalizing 'tribe' discussion

Since Baggins was the only person who seemed to object to Hakkari (and Atal'ai), and we're talking about quest text vs official troll documentation, anyone still disagree with removing 'tribe' from Atal'ai and Hakkari articles? Primal Zed (talk) 19:49, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems that neither side presented much evidence.--SWM2448 20:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was rather clear. The Troll Compendium seems to go to great lengths to differentiate it from the other tribes. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I take it back. The Troll Compendium, Dark Factions, and  [60R] Kezan's Unstoppable Taint calls them "the Hakkari."--SWM2448 20:49, 30 October 2010 (UTC)